Praia Da Luz Church

[DCI]

Published 12 SEP 2007. You didn't see it.

I saw it half way down, but Why is it dated 22nd February 2008 on the top?

[pathfinder73]

That's the date of the website screenshot. Go to Madeleine update page and the last article was from 12 SEP 07.

[gilet]

I doubt they are going to hand over keys unless a request is made. Was a request made by the McCann's to John Geraghty? We need to know the answer to this question. What does the book say?

I always wonder when people ask "what does the book say" why they simply don't make the effort themselves and actually read the book.

Can you please explain why you are demanding others tell you and you are not willing to bother reading for yourself?

If you need to know the answer then why not make the effort to find it instead of demanding the information from others?

[gilet]

The hypocrite catholic side of me says that a good catholic prays anywhere, even in your bathtub.

The use of the church for personal means was an heresy. The inhabitants of the village didn't take it well. They felt it was an abuse. The church belongs to the people and not to a carer that chose to give the key to the McCann without consulting anyone, not even the priest (the Priest Pacheco never authorized for them to have the key, he just accepted it after the fact).

Nobody knows what they did inside the church, and whatever it was it didn't have anything to do with the search for their daughter but only with a PR maneuver to show them as devoted.



In fact they rarely used the church, at the most they went there twice, but they wanted the public to believe that they went there frequently.

If as you claim, you are a Catholic then you should know that there is a very great tendency among Catholics to wish to pray in certain locations. In Fatima or Lourdes for example. In the presence of the Blessed Sacrament inside a church for another example. I am surprised you are not aware of this.

As for heresy. The idea that a church (when normally it would be locked) should be made available to a person in distress who needs to pray quietly is as far from heresy as can be imagined. As a Catholic I would have thought you might have some notion of the real meaning of the word, heresy. It does not in any way refer to a person's desire to pray. There was no exclusion of others as I understand the aim was that the McCanns (Kate in particular) could use the church when it was normally locked and empty.

It is merely your very biased opinion that the purpose of the visits to the church were nothing to do with a genuine desire to pray. You have no idea of what was in the mind of another person, one who you do not even know, and by showing such bias you rather damage your case.

I echo the question posed to you by another poster. Your statement as a fact that the McCanns only used the Church twice is unsupported. Is that just opinion as well or are you going to present some evidence? Unless you provide such evidence then we can take it there is none can't we?

[AnneGuedes]

the OP was about the church.

It was the fist time I read devotes had been given a key to have the church all for themselves. Then I read that Mrs McCann had also the key of her Rothley church ! That doesn't sound very democratic. Why don't they open the churches 24hours a day ? Of course items would be stolen but vanity of vanities all is vanity says the Ecclesiastes.

[sadie]

It was the fist time I read devotes had been given a key to have the church all for themselves. Then I read that Mrs McCann had also the key of her Rothley church ! That doesn't sound very democratic. Why don't they open the churches 24hours a day ? Of course items would be stolen but vanity of vanities all is vanity says the Ecclesiastes.

Bludy L Anne, you have lost me there again

Can you pls put it in plain English.  Thanks

[gilet]

It was the fist time I read devotes had been given a key to have the church all for themselves. Then I read that Mrs McCann had also the key of her Rothley church ! That doesn't sound very democratic. Why don't they open the churches 24hours a day ? Of course items would be stolen but vanity of vanities all is vanity says the Ecclesiastes.

Your question is followed in your own post in part by the answer.

But the problem is not only that things would be stolen, the eventual vandalism would make the prospect utterly untenable.

I really do think that you have an odd view about churches. It really is not uncommon for lay people to hold keys, flower arrangers, sidesmen, vergers, sacristans, people who conduct prayer groups, individuals who benefit from prayer even.

[AnneGuedes]

individuals who benefit from prayer even.

?

[gilet]

?

You appear not to understand that some individuals may benefit from prayer. Are you not aware of the calming effects that prayer (or in some faiths, meditation even) can have? Are you not aware that some people turn to prayer when a crisis befalls their family?

These are people who benefit from prayer. Some prefer private prayer, some more public prayer. The churches do their best to provide for all.

[pathfinder73]

[Hey Pegasus, the keys to the church were received on Tue 8 May. Have you any plans of the church? What's underneath it? Were there any reports of any bad smells there or just rumours?] (Pathfinder)

I am not sure if the keys were given Tue or a previous day. They were visited by both denominations sooner than that.
Have no plans of church and no indication of catacombs cellars or secret tunnels.
There are several modern circular drain outlets on the shore.
On the rocks at the small beach below the fortaleza there is an old big rectangular drain outlet there is a photo somewhere of two exsoldier searchers checking it but I don't know where it drains from. (Pegasus)

[Thanks. I've seen the pipe picture with the soldiers. I'm wanting to know if there is a cellar or access to a room underneath the church? Sat 12 May Madeleine's 4th Birthday at Church. Any reports of bad smells?

p.s. Sat 5th May when Patricia Cameron arrived. She said they had a car to use. It would be interesting to know which car that was in light of the Carolyn Kish discrepancy sighting on the 7 May?] (Pathfinder)

[At the small beach it is not a pipe, it looks much older, see the last outlet here http://www.mccannfiles.com/id340.html] (Pegasus)

This big opening?

[pegasus]

The channel cut in the rock, where CS and ST are walking, in you can see in aerial photos IIRC.

[pathfinder73]

Will check that later. Thanks. The following passage is interesting in relation to a tunnel. Would like to know what's under that church if poss?

"On Tuesday 8 May, we said an emotional goodbye to the family and friends who were leaving us, including my parents and Gerry’s mum. It was so sad, but we all knew it was for the best. We had been given a key to the church so that we could go there and pray whenever we wished. Tuesday evening (8th May) while we were praying privately at Nossa Senhora da Luz, Gerry had an extraordinary spiritual experience. He suddenly became aware of a long tunnel with light at the far end of it. He felt himself enter the tunnel and, as he went deeper and deeper inside, it became wider and wider and brighter and brighter. He had never known anything like this before and he immediately interpreted it as a sign urging us to do absolutely everything within our power to find Madeleine ourselves. From that moment he was convinced that we needed to take the initiative to mobilise all the resources available to us."

[pegasus]

For fuller account of branching tunnel see    
"Hope, strength, courage, 16 June 2007" at http://www.mccannfiles.com/id1.html
P.S. This article is based on an interview in Amsterdam, early June 2007. It also refers to the keys.

[pathfinder73]

You're correct pegasus.

As Mr McCann explained: "We couldn't get out of heads that she was likely to be dead and we were truly, truly grieving. But then the psychologist said, ‘Is there any other possibility?' And then he started channelling negatives and saying, ‘Of course there are other possibilities.' And we started to see that."

The second was meeting the local parish priest, Fr José Manuel Pacheco. Fr Zé, as he is popularly known, is a great favourite with the McCanns: warm, genial and inspiring. He speaks fluent English and Mr McCann said he had worked hard to bring together the British expatriate community and Portuguese Catholics.

It was Fr Zé at that first Sunday Mass who exhorted them to have hope, strength and courage. That evening he came to say the rosary with them at their apartment and invited his parishioners as well. Was it all a bit much?

"Not at all, it was lovely. There were about 50 women and they brought the children. It was a huge comfort," she says.

The parish priest also gave the McCanns the keys to the church so that they could pray there alone in the evenings. It was while they were doing this early in the first week that Mr McCann had an extraordinary experience.

"When I was praying I started thinking of all the things that were happening. There were lots and lots of ideas in my head and how we could make things better and I was really feeling very down and not sure which way to proceed. I had this mental image of being in a tunnel and instead of the light at the end of the tunnel being extremely narrow and a distant spot, the light opened up and the tunnel got wider and wider and went in many different directions. I talked to you [Kate] about it and said, ‘I am not prepared to pursue one path. We are going to do everything in our power to influence things.'

"It was almost like something - I am not saying it was the Holy Spirit - came into me and gave me that image. That is when I really felt I had a clear path."

Was it a religious experience?

"I can't say it was a vision because I am not clear what a vision is but I had a mental image and it certainly helped me decide. I became a man possessed that night. The next day I was up at dawn, making phone calls."

A few days later the McCanns attended an evening vigil for Madeleine at Fr Zé's church organised by the local scouts. The service, in a church lit by candles, was, they say, the most uplifting they had ever been to. There came a point where the congregation was asked to unravel a large ball of green wool passing it from one person to another until it encompassed the entire gathering. The very memory of this service seems to give the McCanns a lift and they complete each other's sentences as they remember it.

"We sang a song, and we just kept singing the same verse, ‘Nothing will separate us', over and over again and the church was completely overflowing. The wool finally got all the way round and the message was ‘nothing will separate us and we are all united'. We were joined in this. As we were leaving the people just kept giving us flowers."

The McCanns' campaign has involved every possible avenue being used to raise the profile of Madeleine. There has been a certain resentment about it but Kate McCann says they have been careful to stress they are not the only parents who have suffered in this way.

"Madeleine is incredibly precious to us. Since this happened we have been made more aware of how many missing children there are. It is awful that we didn't know the scale of it before. Madeleine is as special to us as other children are to their parents."

Criticism of the McCanns' high-profile strategy followed their trips to Fatima, Rome and elsewhere. The couple were astonished that their request to meet the Pope was granted immediately after they contacted Cardinal Cormac Murphy-O'Connor. The cardinal told them he would do the same for anyone in their situation.

"These comments from people like the cardinal really helped sustain us. We know the criticism is small but when you are clinging to positives and hope and prayer, criticism does hit home quite hard when you would normally shrug it off."

The visit to Rome involved the use of a private jet supplied by the retail multimillionaire Sir Philip Green. While the McCanns realised that using the plane could generate negative reactions they felt they had to be consistent in accepting every genuine offer of help, no matter how large or small. Private jets, they pointed out, shorten considerably the time they have to spend away from the twins.

The hardest thing to ask these parents who have prayed so fervently for their daughter is how they will feel about their faith if she is not returned. Mr McCann was first to respond. "If we don't get Madeleine back alive and well, I am sure our faith will be severely tested. At the end of it, we will still have our faith and we will also have comfort that Madeleine will be looked after. We haven't dwelt on that but I think that is what we will be left with. Our friends, our family, the Church have really rallied round. I think that's the key thing for me."

Then his wife spoke: "I have considered that as well and I have felt guilty asking, ‘Will this make or break my faith?' And yet at the same time you could argue that what's happened in the first place could make or break your faith and it hasn't. It's done the opposite. It has given us hope and strength."

[pathfinder73]

Oh no it's the sunday express so it could be rubbish.

Tunnels beneath resort may be clue to mystery

By James Murray

Sunday May 3, 2009

Secret tunnels beneath the Portuguese seaside town where Madeleine McCann vanished two years ago today may hold the key to her disappearance.

The tunnels, dating back to Roman times, have never been thoroughly searched, despite repeated requests.

Documents in Portuguese police files, published today for the first time, suggest a vital line of inquiry was ignored and have led to fresh calls for a proper investigation into the tunnels.

A British woman wrote to UK detectives saying: "There are six to eight tunnels under Praia da Luz that the PJ [Portuguese police] have not searched. There is a tunnel under the church, there are tunnels under Estrela da Luz apartments. These have not been searched.

"The archaeologist involved with these tunnels was arrested as an abuser in the Casa Pia case but later released [this was a notorious child abuse scandal centring on orphanages in Lisbon].

"Does this not send alarm bells ringing? Something not right in Portugal. Why are the PJ not searching these tunnels and the church?"

 
Asked to send more details to Detective Constable John Hughes of Leicestershire Police, she told him the Ocean Club resort in Praia da Luz, where the McCanns stayed, was built around Roman ruins that were part of a small fishing settlement in the third to fifth centuries.

There is also a Roman burial site and ruins include an aqueduct, wells, fish salting tanks, the remains of a Roman bathhouse and at least eight tunnels.

The woman, who declined to be named, told the Sunday Express last night: "I raised these issues a while ago because I thought they were relevant and I know the British detectives passed the information on to the Portuguese detectives but I never discovered what happened.

"As a matter of urgency there must be a proper and thorough examination of all these tunnels . It is possible the abductor may have left clues."

Her call comes as two private investigators working for Kate and Gerry McCann say they are ­convinced that someone living in or near Praia da Luz, where Madeleine vanished on May 3, 2007, knows what happened to her.

Retired Detective Inspector Dave Edgar, who leads the McCanns' search team, said: "There is someone local, who lives locally, who has the answer to this, and not, you know, much further than 10, 15 kilometres away from Praia da Luz.

"So you don't start an investigation in Morocco or Spain or France, or even Lisbon."

Mr Edgar and former Detective Sergeant Arthur Cowley say one key statement appears to corroborate the account the McCanns' friend Jane Tanner gave to police of a man she saw carrying a small girl near the McCanns' apartment on May 3 at around 9.10pm.

Shortly afterwards on the same night, another family also saw a man carrying a small blonde child nearby. Their descriptions of the pair were very similar to Jane Tanner's.

The McCanns' team has also found a number of statements from tourists who noticed a suspicious-looking man hanging around near the McCanns' apartment at the Ocean Club complex.

Mr Edgar told a Channel 4 documentary (Cutting Edge: Madeleine Was Here) featuring a reconstruction of the fateful night: "In my experience, random just doesn't happen. Someone just doesn't go in, a passer-by, and pick up a child and take it, these things are planned.

"So someone will have been in the vicinity of apartment 5a [the McCanns' apartment], the Ocean Club, they may even have been ­watching the apartment for a week or more."