Madeleine McCann case to be re-opened in Portugal as an abduction scenario.

[Kazcutt]

And that evidence has to be substantial (ie of substance).

Martin on sky just said .its a witness or witnesses who was only questioned once .
If i could be bothered id go through the files again but it takes hours reading them pages .

[gilet]

Just more pedantic rubbish....Par for the course....mr Smith was shaken when he saw the footage...it obviously  triggered something in his unconscious that was very important.....perhaps so important to explain the  Mccanns not shouting this sighting of a young blond child seeing being carried ON THE NIGHT their child was abducted from the rooftops but chasing after creepy charity collectors  nowhere near them in time or distance!!! pffft

So it triggered this and then he waited a full eleven days before bothering to phone Leicester Police with this new concern of his?

Sorry, I simply do not accept your view.

You clearly cannot accept that Gerry McCann was identified by witnesses including at least one independent witness who identified him as being elsewhere.

You clearly cannot accept that of all the Smith statements only one even mentions the possibility that it might have been Gerry McCann and that only on the basis of the way he carried the child.

Thankfully, SY and the PJ (the accredited experts in the field) both appear to have come to conclusions which totally and utterly differ from your view and which match far more closely mine.

[AnneGuedes]

The Amish are not a race.

You could claim it was xenophobic if you want.

I saw some when I was studying in Boston - if it wasn't for the religion I could go for the lifestyle.

N

Not even xenophobic ! Cariad suggested Smithman could be an Amish when I suggested he could hate all the gadgets of post-modernity (since he did the less expected in a case of abduction : walk).

[Kazcutt]

We heard martin smith talking on the phone on crimewatch
He didnt say it was gerry ,the pj got lost in translation

[Lyall]

So it triggered this and then he waited a full eleven days before bothering to phone Leicester Police with this new concern of his?

Sorry, I simply do not accept your view.

You clearly cannot accept that Gerry McCann was identified by witnesses including at least one independent witness who identified him as being elsewhere.

You clearly cannot accept that of all the Smith statements only one even mentions the possibility that it might have been Gerry McCann and that only on the basis of the way he carried the child.

Thankfully, SY and the PJ (the accredited experts in the field) both appear to have come to conclusions which totally and utterly differ from your view and which match far more closely mine.

You can only state what their conclusions are when they have been written for posterity Don't confuse PR with policing.

[gilet]

The new leads are from people who was questioned once according to sky .
They left statements but was never questioned again

This seems to be a fundamental flaw in both the initial police investigation and in the understanding of the nature of police work on the part of the anti McCanns.

Both the initial PJ team and the anti McCanns have this view that statements once made are fixed, that they seem to become fact simply by being statements. But the reality is that statements themselves have to be investigated and followed up. More questioning follows and only then does a police team get closer to the truth of a case.

It would appear as you suggest that many witness statements were simply filed and not followed up properly. That is what the PJ Oporto team have discovered and which have led to this re-opening.

[Kazcutt]

This seems to be a fundamental flaw in both the initial police investigation and in the understanding of the nature of police work on the part of the anti McCanns.

Both the initial PJ team and the anti McCanns have this view that statements once made are fixed, that they seem to become fact simply by being statements. But the reality is that statements themselves have to be investigated and followed up. More questioning follows and only then does a police team get closer to the truth of a case.

It would appear as you suggest that many witness statements were simply filed and not followed up properly. That is what the PJ Oporto team have discovered and which have led to this re-opening.

Thats what they said .
But also i wonder if it was a nightmare there was that many statements

[gilet]

You can only state what their conclusions are when they have been written for posterity Don't confuse PR with policing.

Initial conclusions about the direction in which an investigation should proceed are not usually written for posterity. They are merely working conclusions but nonetheless are indeed conclusions and no matter how many silly smilies you may introduce that fact will not change.

There is no PR involved in making regular reviews of an investigation and making conclusions at those reviews which lead to further procedures. That is precisely what has occurred at this juncture.

The review done in Oporto has come to the conclusion (as has the SY review) that there should be investigation not into the McCanns but into abduction by persons unknown. Those two separately made conclusions have led to the two investigations which are now open.

[AnneGuedes]

So it triggered this and then he waited a full eleven days before bothering to phone Leicester Police with this new concern of his?

Sorry, I simply do not accept your view.

You clearly cannot accept that Gerry McCann was identified by witnesses including at least one independent witness who identified him as being elsewhere.

You clearly cannot accept that of all the Smith statements only one even mentions the possibility that it might have been Gerry McCann and that only on the basis of the way he carried the child.

When you make a mistake, when you're corrected, the next step is to make the same mistake again. Here they're 3.

[gilet]

Thats what they said .
But also i wonder if it was a nightmare there was that many statements

Of course, it was a nightmare.

But that is what policing is all about. Taking thousands of statements and reviewing each one carefully to sift out the useful and reject only those which have no value. That is what most civilised countries expect of the police, especially in a missing child case.

The initial PJ inquiry we are told failed in that respect.

The review in Oporto by the PJ has discovered this and found aspects of statements which were not followed up and which constitute substantial evidence regarding potential abductors.

[sadie]

It leaves SY with egg on it's face. Come on a few people hanging around are hardly suspicious surely?

N

A few people hanging around so much so that people noticed them and took note of their appearance and noted that they were looking explicitly at The Mccanns apartment in the days before a little girl was abducted.

I'd say that was extremely suspicious !  Why do you think that it was not, BFB ?

[Cariad]

Not even xenophobic ! Cariad suggested Smithman could be an Amish when I suggested he could hate all the gadgets of post-modernity (since he did the less expected in a case of abduction : walk).

I did. I thought it was a perfect explanation for his lack of an auto mobile!

I didn't really, I just thought it was funny*

*cue the indignant 'you're laughing at a missing child comments!!'


anyway, back on topic: What do we actually know? Is the verifiable news just that the case is being reopened? I've spent all day (on and off) reading the news, lurking on Facebook groups and forums, but after sifting through the disinformation all I can really come up with is 'The case will be reopened in Portugal'.

[sadie]

When you make a mistake, when you're corrected, the next step is to make the same mistake again. Here they're 3.

I think you are wrong, Anne

Can you elucidate pls?

[gilet]

When you make a mistake, when you're corrected, the next step is to make the same mistake again. Here they're 3.

Not one of the so-called mistakes you have highlighted is a mistake.

Every one is fact.

Martin Smith waited after seeing the BBC News report on 9th September a whole eleven days before reporting his suspicion by telephone to the LP on 20th September as recorded by the Holmes Indexer at Braunstone Police Station. (Folio 2873)

A worker at the Tapas Restaurant places Gerry McCann at that scene at precisely the time of the disappearance. (Folio 122)

And I repeat there is only one statement from the Smith family which states that Gerry McCann may have been  the man they sighted. If there are others please give links to them so that we can read where that is mentioned as a possibility. If you cannot provide such links to these statements then we will be forced to the conclusion that it is not in fact me making mistakes here.

[Lyall]

Initial conclusions about the direction in which an investigation should proceed are not usually written for posterity. They are merely working conclusions but nonetheless are indeed conclusions and no matter how many silly smilies you may introduce that fact will not change.

There is no PR involved in making regular reviews of an investigation and making conclusions at those reviews which lead to further procedures. That is precisely what has occurred at this juncture.

The review done in Oporto has come to the conclusion (as has the SY review) that there should be investigation not into the McCanns but into abduction by persons unknown. Those two separately made conclusions have led to the two investigations which are now open.

You know very well the consequences if they say anything different. This is once again the most high profile missing child case in the world. Portugal does not want the English press back