Author Topic: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!  (Read 162686 times)

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Offline Carana

Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
« Reply #1365 on: May 18, 2015, 02:00:37 PM »
They were looking for a child Carana.  Surely even a dead child deserves a decent burial?

Of course, but what you were saying earlier was that there was some sense of urgency about potentially finding a living child. That doesn't appear to have been the case.

Offline Alice Purjorick

Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
« Reply #1366 on: May 18, 2015, 02:22:08 PM »
They were looking for a child Carana.  Surely even a dead child deserves a decent burial?

I have a feeling that comes under human rights and denial of a "proper burial" is an offence. It certainly is in USA.
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Offline Eleanor

Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
« Reply #1367 on: May 18, 2015, 02:30:36 PM »
I have a feeling that comes under human rights and denial of a "proper burial" is an offence. It certainly is in USA.

I think they had worse things than that to worry about.  And if I was being beaten senseless and made to kneel on glass ashtrays, I would have told them what I had done with the body.  If I knew.

But I suppose they can always charge them with that offence once they have served their sentence.

Offline Carana

Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
« Reply #1368 on: May 18, 2015, 02:37:13 PM »
Why is torture a bad idea?  Because the main motivation of a person under torture is to make it stop.  They will therefore say anything, agree to anything, confess to anything, to make it end.  Even if innocent.  They are also mentally vulnerable and thus open to suggestion.

So as a technique for obtaining information it is very badly flawed.  And is far more likely to lead a police investigation down the wrong path than it is to help.

In the meantime, the real perp could be laughing his head off. Justice?

Offline Benice

Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
« Reply #1369 on: May 18, 2015, 02:52:02 PM »
Only a policeman knows what goes on in the real world, the belief that such things never occur in the UK is false I'm afraid.

To put the Leonor Cipriano torture into perspective, it was more of a mild beating with a cardboard roll than a torture.  You have to understand the circumstances to fully comprehend why several detectives put themselves in that position.

A youngster was missing and a mother and uncle were admitting to foul play but refusing to say where she was located or at least were giving false indications. 

Do you not think that in those circumstances something needed to be done quickly in order to have any chance of finding her dead or alive?  It was a case of do something and do it quickly.

Was a child's life not worth a few bruises?

I can only presume you haven't seen the photographs of Leanor's horrific injuries.    Why would the Prison Governor lie about the extent of those injuries?   Or send her to hospital - for a couple of bruises.

Amaral  came unstuck when the prisoner governor would not agree to collude with the PJ and  lie and say Leonora was beaten up by other prisoners.

And not for the first time I ask you why -  after apparently admitting to killing her daughter (so it was game over anyway) - Leonor would not tell them where the body was -  even after the most horrendous torture.  That makes no sense. 

There is only one credible reason why she couldn't tell them IMO and that was because she didn't know - because she had not killed her -  and no amount of beatings could change that. 

The whole Cipriano affair could not be more shameful IMO.

I'm astonished that you of all people have apparently managed to convince yourself that any kind of torture of one defenceless woman by a large group of aggressive bullying men can be justified.  After hours of prolonged torture people will say anything to make it stop.    Surely you must know that  John?


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Offline John

Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
« Reply #1370 on: May 18, 2015, 05:07:52 PM »
I can only presume you haven't seen the photographs of Leanor's horrific injuries.    Why would the Prison Governor lie about the extent of those injuries?   Or send her to hospital - for a couple of bruises.

Amaral  came unstuck when the prisoner governor would not agree to collude with the PJ and  lie and say Leonora was beaten up by other prisoners.

And not for the first time I ask you why -  after apparently admitting to killing her daughter (so it was game over anyway) - Leonor would not tell them where the body was -  even after the most horrendous torture.  That makes no sense. 

There is only one credible reason why she couldn't tell them IMO and that was because she didn't know - because she had not killed her -  and no amount of beatings could change that. 

The whole Cipriano affair could not be more shameful IMO.

I'm astonished that you of all people have apparently managed to convince yourself that any kind of torture of one defenceless woman by a large group of aggressive bullying men can be justified.  After hours of prolonged torture people will say anything to make it stop.    Surely you must know that  John?

You don't understand what pressures are brought upon police in these situations. Was it better the missing girl just lay in a ditch somewhere, never to be found?
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Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
« Reply #1371 on: May 18, 2015, 05:21:55 PM »
They were looking for a child Carana.  Surely even a dead child deserves a decent burial?
"Even a dead child"?!  I think the "even" was somewhat superfluous in that sentence, at least I hope it was!

Alfred R Jones

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Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
« Reply #1372 on: May 18, 2015, 05:26:55 PM »
You don't understand what pressures are brought upon police in these situations. Was it better the missing girl just lay in a ditch somewhere, never to be found?
Despite the torture she never was found was she?

Offline Eleanor

Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
« Reply #1373 on: May 18, 2015, 05:49:58 PM »
Despite the torture she never was found was she?

The PJ came up with several reasons to explain that.  After they failed to get Leonor or Joao to tell them. 

Offline sadie

Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
« Reply #1374 on: May 18, 2015, 06:04:34 PM »
The PJ came up with several reasons to explain that.  After they failed to get Leonor or Joao to tell them.
People who dont know what happened, even after torture, cannot give that explanation.

Can they?

Offline Eleanor

Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
« Reply #1375 on: May 18, 2015, 06:20:10 PM »
People who dont know what happened, even after torture, cannot give that explanation.

Can they?

That is how it seems to me, Sadie.  It makes no sense to suffer torture just for the sake of hiding a body.  Which I don't believe they did.

Offline DCI

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Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
« Reply #1376 on: May 18, 2015, 06:27:57 PM »
That is how it seems to me, Sadie.  It makes no sense to suffer torture just for the sake of hiding a body.  Which I don't believe they did.

Nor do I. The way Amaral described such a graffic account, of how many pieces, and how the girls body was cut up, and put in black bags, gives me the creeps. If that's correct, how does he know, and where is it?
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stephen25000

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Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
« Reply #1377 on: May 18, 2015, 06:36:07 PM »
That is how it seems to me, Sadie.  It makes no sense to suffer torture just for the sake of hiding a body.  Which I don't believe they did.

Trouble is they confessed before the 'torture'.

ferryman

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Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
« Reply #1378 on: May 18, 2015, 07:04:04 PM »
I think the question of whether she was beaten before after the 'confession' is largely irrelevant.

That she was beaten at all proves (to my satisfaction) that the interrogation was carried out in a hostile atmosphere of intimidation and menace, which can have the "advantage" (to the interrogators) of leaving no physical marks, yet producing the "desired" result.

Offline Davel

Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
« Reply #1379 on: May 18, 2015, 08:25:32 PM »
The ruling in the case of alleged attacks on Leonor Cipriano was read this afternoon in the Court of Faro.

 

It was taken as proven that Leonor Cipriano was beaten by elements of the Judicial police who could not be identified, and she didn't fall on the stairs, as was suggested. However, the court failed to ascertain the perpetrators of the aggressions.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2015, 07:51:17 AM by John »