The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!

[Carana]

I can't recall a three-year-old ever disappearing and being found alive after a number of years but I could be wrong.  Could you enlighten me please?

I have already mentioned a few cases of young children who were recovered (or who found their way home) quite some time after they disappeared. Some will obviously be parental abductions, but not all.

Here's one moving story, for example:
http://www.sfgate.com/crime/article/PAGE-ONE-Tara-Burke-s-Triumph-Over-Terror-15-2799170.php

[Carana]

I can't recall a three-year-old ever disappearing and being found alive after a number of years but I could be wrong.  Could you enlighten me please?

Joana was 8 years old at the time, not 3.

Two of the young Dutroux victims were found alive. Although they were 14 and 12 (plus two other older victims) at the time, two other little girls (around 8 years old) might not have suffered a horrible death if the police had been on the ball.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutroux

[John]

I believe the point that some are making is that seldom in modern times has an under 10-year-old child been abducted by a stranger and been found alive after several years.  It certainly appears that survivability for any youngster abdcted below this age is nil or almost nil.

I fear that if Joana or even Madeleine are ever found alive they will be in a statistical category all on their own. 

[Carana]

I believe the point that some are making is that seldom in modern times has an under 10-year-old child been abducted by a stranger and been found alive after several years.  It certainly appears that survivability for any youngster abdcted below this age is nil or almost nil.

I fear that if Joana or even Madeleine are ever found alive they will be in a statistical category all on their own.

Two of the little girls abducted by Dutroux were 8, and could have been found alive if the police had investigated where the sound of children shouting out came from. They might have even have stayed alive longer if Dutroux hadn't been sent to prison for something else and his wife had fed them.

[Benice]

I believe the point that some are making is that seldom in modern times has an under 10-year-old child been abducted by a stranger and been found alive after several years.  It certainly appears that survivability for any youngster abdcted below this age is nil or almost nil.

I fear that if Joana or even Madeleine are ever found alive they will be in a statistical category all on their own.

Only if you only include some parts of the world that we live in IMO.    IIRC Thousands and thousands of children are abducted every year in Asia - especially in China.    Just because we never hear a word about them doesn't make them any less important and I'm certain they would make a huge difference to any statistics.

[John]

Only if you only include some parts of the world that we live in IMO.    IIRC Thousands and thousands of children are abducted every year in Asia - especially in China.    Just because we never hear a word about them doesn't make them any less important and I'm certain they would make a huge difference to any statistics.

Granted, child abduction is rife in third world countries.  You have to compare like with like.  Comparing the alleged abductions of Joana Cipriano or Madeleine McCann with the tribal abduction of some little girl in deepest Africa, South America or Asia is not going to achieve anything.

[Carana]

Granted, child abduction is rife in third world countries.  You have to compare like with like.  Comparing the alleged abductions of Joana Cipriano or Madeleine McCann with the tribal abduction of some little girl in deepest Africa, South America or Asia is not going to achieve anything.

MariLuz was abducted in a small village in Spain after going out to buy sweets and her body turned up weeks later. The perp turned out to be a local who had a previous history of abuse (on his own children) and who moved very soon after her disappearance. He'd slipped through the net as he should have been in prison for previous offences at the time. I've already posted the links to this tragic case.

[John]

MariLuz was abducted in a small village in Spain after going out to buy sweets and her body turned up weeks later. The perp turned out to be a local who had a previous history of abuse (on his own children) and who moved very soon after her disappearance. He'd slipped through the net as he should have been in prison for previous offences at the time. I've already posted the links to this tragic case.

Thanks Carana.  Child abduction really is a despicable crime.

[John]

We still don't know the details of what went on or who was involved.  The PJ officers who were accused were acquitted.  Amaral and another officer were prosecuted and convicted of other more minor offences.  Nobody has been convicted of torturing Leonor Cipriano.  Leonor Cipriano was found guilty of lying about the torture and received a further sentence for perjury. 

[Mr Gray]

We still don't know the details of what went on or who was involved.  The PJ officers who were accused were acquitted.  Amaral and another officer were prosecuted and convicted of other more minor offences.  Nobody has been convicted of torturing Leonor Cipriano.  Leonor Cipriano was found guilty of lying about the torture and received a further sentence for perjury.

According to the courts...torture took place whilst cipriano was in the pj building but it was not possible to say who was responsible because ..as you have said...she had a bag over her head...it is untrue to say that torture by the pj did not take palce

[Mr Gray]

In March, the Court of Appeal of Evora confirmed an earlier ruling that Leonor Cipriano had been tortured while in police custody in 2004, but that it could not identify those responsible. Leonor Cipriano had yet to receive compensation from the state. Gonçalo de Sousa Amaral and António Fernandes Nuno Cardoso, senior officials in the judicial police, had been sentenced to 18 months’ and 27 months’ imprisonment respectively, for falsely claiming Leonor Cipriano had fallen down the stairs. However, both sentences were suspended on the grounds that the officers had no previous criminal convictions.

this is from the amnesty site 2012  amarals conviction has never been overturned

[Carana]

I don't know what happened in this case. 

What disturbs me is:

- that the change in the media attitude to reporting started when a certain coordinator took over, particularly in the PT tabloids;

- that, despite the inquisitorial system, there was a jury with unknown instructions or vetting;

- how could the individuals in that jury - in the face of the constant drip of the most horrific media accusations almost from the outset - feel that they would be safe at home if any one of them had not agreed with the guilty verdict?

- more importantly, perhaps, the total lack of forensic evidence and the lack of anything which might seem serious in that regard.

And...


- the fact that the vast majority of witness statements weren't translated (aside from the ones on behalf of the accusation).

[John]

The jury were right to convict them, the only bit that is still unknown by us is who was the instigator and who did what?  In her last effort to clear the way for her parole Leonor put the blame firmly at brother João's door.  It would be interesting to know what he has to say about that.

[sadie]

The jury were right to convict them, the only bit that is still unknown by us is who was the instigator and who did what?  In her last effort to clear the way for her parole Leonor put the blame firmly at brother João's door.  It would be interesting to know what he has to say about that.

The jury where right to convict them? 

On what basis John? 

Use only  non toirtured out stuff, forensic evidence and any other actual facts, please John

[Anna]

The jury were right to convict them, the only bit that is still unknown by us is who was the instigator and who did what?  In her last effort to clear the way for her parole Leonor put the blame firmly at brother João's door.  It would be interesting to know what he has to say about that.

Joao confession 2009 appeal
"Statement
I undersigned CC, prisoner no. 282 470 000 the Prison at Carregueira, I confess that I have tried to sell my niece BB.
To be true I sign this confession.

Sintra 18, may 2009
CC".

IMO. He waited until Leonor's confession had been accepted and then he denied signing it (as he always did...he chickened out at the last minute and left his sister to take the blame) and it was thrown out of court.
This Appeal was meant to have their sentence reduced!

The appeal is easily found on the internet.