New Program featuring an interview with Barbara Wilson, former WHF secretary.

[John]

You obviously haven't studied all the evidence Holly and are letting semantics influence your decision making.

[Holly Goodhead]

You obviously haven't studied all the evidence Holly and are letting semantics influence your decision making.

I like to think that I have studied all the 'evidence' objectively.

Like Sheila and Jeremy I was brought up via a 'closed' adoption.  I also studied psychology at degree level in the 80's.  I guess this experience and knowledge cause me to look at the case from a different perspective.  Which if I didn't have might well cause me to think differently - I doubt I would be as convinced as I am that Bamber's case is the worst MoJ in British criminal history. 

[Redblossom]

How come you're a Newbie Red Blossom with 4659 posts and membership since Apr '13?  I'm a Newbie  too but only 164 posts and membership since Mar '13. 

I thnk that is a default description, see, Ive changed it now, you can call yourself what you like or make any other personal statement through modify profile....


 

[goatboy]

When you consider who is guilty of a murder there are three things to consider. Means, motive and opportunity. Who had all of these things regarding the White House Farm murders? Sheila? If you take the view that she was having a psychotic episode then that takes the motive part out of it. Opportunity, well she was in the house. Means? She simply couldn't have fired the rifle so accurately and failed to hit the target only a few times, she couldn't have reloaded the rifle at least twice. She couldn't have battered Nevill senseless. She went on a killing spree including a life or death struggle with Nevill and showed little or no signs of this at all on her skin, hair, clothing etc. If this was to have worked she would need a steady supply of ammo. As far as I understand it she would have gone on the rampage in a flimsy nightie with no pockets. Finally she somehow managed to shoot herself through the neck twice, despite the fact that there is every indication that the first shot would probably have rendered her unconscious, and possibly even paralysed. Dr Vanezis's comment that the first shot wouldn't have been immediately fatal has been taken on the blue forum to mean she could have walked around and even run upstairs. This simply could not have happened. Despite what it said in the TV programme it's reasonably clear that Nevill was first shot upstairs. The fact he ended up downstairs was probably because he was trying to get to the phone, which was disabled either because the phone had been moved from his room without him knowing or  by taking the kitchen phone off the hook. Someone battered him senseless because he was trying to get to the phone. What would it have mattered to Sheila if he had made a call for help? When she was planning to kill herself anyway which she would have easily accomplished by the time the police would have arrived? So someone was willing to go to great lengths to stop Nevill getting to the phone to say what was really happening. And who would have had the motivation to do that?

Bamber on the other hand had motive (money), means (knew how to get to the farm quickly on a bike and how to get into the building without having to break in) and opportunity (at last everyone in his way of his inheritance just happened to be gathered together in the house at the same time). It seems quite obvious really when you think about it, doesn't it?

[Holly Goodhead]

When you consider who is guilty of a murder there are three things to consider. Means, motive and opportunity. Who had all of these things regarding the White House Farm murders? Sheila? If you take the view that she was having a psychotic episode then that takes the motive part out of it. Opportunity, well she was in the house. Means? She simply couldn't have fired the rifle so accurately and failed to hit the target only a few times, she couldn't have reloaded the rifle at least twice. She couldn't have battered Nevill senseless. She went on a killing spree including a life or death struggle with Nevill and showed little or no signs of this at all on her skin, hair, clothing etc. If this was to have worked she would need a steady supply of ammo. As far as I understand it she would have gone on the rampage in a flimsy nightie with no pockets. Finally she somehow managed to shoot herself through the neck twice, despite the fact that there is every indication that the first shot would probably have rendered her unconscious, and possibly even paralysed. Dr Vanezis's comment that the first shot wouldn't have been immediately fatal has been taken on the blue forum to mean she could have walked around and even run upstairs. This simply could not have happened. Despite what it said in the TV programme it's reasonably clear that Nevill was first shot upstairs. The fact he ended up downstairs was probably because he was trying to get to the phone, which was disabled either because the phone had been moved from his room without him knowing or  by taking the kitchen phone off the hook. Someone battered him senseless because he was trying to get to the phone. What would it have mattered to Sheila if he had made a call for help? When she was planning to kill herself anyway which she would have easily accomplished by the time the police would have arrived? So someone was willing to go to great lengths to stop Nevill getting to the phone to say what was really happening. And who would have had the motivation to do that?

Bamber on the other hand had motive (money), means (knew how to get to the farm quickly on a bike and how to get into the building without having to break in) and opportunity (at last everyone in his way of his inheritance just happened to be gathered together in the house at the same time). It seems quite obvious really when you think about it, doesn't it?

The problem I have Goatboy is that if it was so obvious how come hard-nosed experienced Essex police/ hierarchy and other professionals were fooled by a 24 year old public school boy of average intelligence for weeks until he was arrested and charged?  Bamber's life experiences amounted to travelling/working his way around the Antipodes; working at Little Chef, Sloppy Joes and his parents' farm. 

Essex police/hierarchy are used to dealing with the sophisticated criminal underworld of Essex, Kent and East London.  The hardest of the hard.  Millwall  and West Ham supporters.  I cant buy into them being bought over by a 24 year old floppy haired, public school boy who liked to don new romantic gear and make-up on nights out.

Taff Jones a highly experienced officer maintained, up until his death in May '86, Bamber was innocent and imo he was spot on.

[sika]

Holly Goodhead, your failure to attempt to contradict any of Goatboys well made arguments, speaks volumes to me.

[Holly Goodhead]

Holly Goodhead, your failure to attempt to contradict any of Goatboys well made arguments, speaks volumes to me.

I'm a lazy b....r Sika    I thought I would slide the above in and job done but I can see I need to up my game on Red.  Watch this space...

[Outlook]

The police are not brilliant.  Most of the time they are dealing with morons not "Supervillians" out of James Bond.

Remember the Michael Sam's case.  The Country in uproar, police forces of was it six Counties involved, including the SAS and he beat them all and got away with the ransom on one foggy night.  The media thought he was some criminal genius and he turns out to be a self-employed, one-legged, dyslexic, train-spotter eventually shopped by his own wife five minutes into Crimewatch.

Criminals are invariably stupid people or they would not do what they do.  Anyone out of the ordinary tends to run rings around the police.

"Taff" Jones was far from being the brilliant officer that "Blue" portray him as.  He was reasonable compared to Tesco and Gladys which is a pretty low pass mark.

Bamber is guilty, there is a host of evidence against him and the only way he is getting out is in a coffin and the quicker that happens the better for everyone.  Maybe they can bury him with Jimmy Savile.  They would get on well together.

If you want to talk about Bamber try to be open-minded not empty-minded like Tesco Towers or everyone just gets bored.

[John]

To begin with Holly, I would like to know who you would suggest did it if not Jerry?

[Holly Goodhead]

To begin with Holly, I would like to know who you would suggest did it if not Jerry?

CoA Doc

6. Unusually in a case of this kind, it was accepted at trial that there were only two possible explanations for the dreadful events of that night. The first, as alleged by the prosecution was that the appellant had killed all five members of his family, shooting them with a .22 rifle with the probable motive of inheriting the whole of the family estate. The second, the defence case, was that Sheila Caffell, who had a history of mental illness, had murdered her parents and her two sons with the rifle, and had then turned the gun upon herself in an act of suicide. The view realistically accepted by all at trial was that the facts that were common ground enabled any other possibility to be ruled out.

I agree with the defence as stated above.

[John]

CoA Doc

6. Unusually in a case of this kind, it was accepted at trial that there were only two possible explanations for the dreadful events of that night. The first, as alleged by the prosecution was that the appellant had killed all five members of his family, shooting them with a .22 rifle with the probable motive of inheriting the whole of the family estate. The second, the defence case, was that Sheila Caffell, who had a history of mental illness, had murdered her parents and her two sons with the rifle, and had then turned the gun upon herself in an act of suicide. The view realistically accepted by all at trial was that the facts that were common ground enabled any other possibility to be ruled out.

I agree with the defence as stated above.

So tell me?  How did a petite Sheila beat up her father and then manage to shoot herself twice in the next without leaving a single trace?

[Holly Goodhead]

So tell me?  How did a petite Sheila beat up her father and then manage to shoot herself twice in the next without leaving a single trace?

Gun shot wounds to Nevill Bamber

The pathologist's report states that bullet wounds 5 and 6  whilst not immediately life threatening could well have been had other injuries not supervened.  These wounds apparently caused substantial loss of blood internally and externally and extreme pain. Bullet wound 7 totally impaired Nevill's left arm.  Bullet wound 8 caused superficial grazing to the shoulder.  I understand wounds 5,6 and 7 were received in the bedroom and wound 8 on or around the stairs.

Therefore by the time Nevill received the bullet wounds 1 to 4 in the kitchen he was in no state to defend himself against anyone. 

The location of the bullets is somewhat confusing in that 3 were found in the kitchen; 1 on or around the stairs and 4 in the bedroom.  The pathologist's report states that it is not possible to state with any degree of accuracy to describe the life functions that each wound (1 - 4 head) individually interfered with the essential life functions. 

Did Nevill receive one of the head wounds in the Bedroom?  Either way wounds 5, 6 and 7 appear to have rendered him defenceless.

[sika]

In all these years, Bamber and his disciples have failed spectacularly, despite their exhaustive efforts, to produce any credible evidence to support his pleas of innocence. 

[Myster]

Gun shot wounds to Nevill Bamber

The pathologist's report states that bullet wounds 5 and 6  whilst not immediately life threatening could well have been had other injuries not supervened.  These wounds apparently caused substantial loss of blood internally and externally and extreme pain. Bullet wound 7 totally impaired Nevill's left arm.  Bullet wound 8 caused superficial grazing to the shoulder.  I understand wounds 5,6 and 7 were received in the bedroom and wound 8 on or around the stairs.

Therefore by the time Nevill received the bullet wounds 1 to 4 in the kitchen he was in no state to defend himself against anyone. 

The location of the bullets is somewhat confusing in that 3 were found in the kitchen; 1 on or around the stairs and 4 in the bedroom.  The pathologist's report states that it is not possible to state with any degree of accuracy to describe the life functions that each wound (1 - 4 head) individually interfered with the essential life functions. 

Did Nevill receive one of the head wounds in the Bedroom?  Either way wounds 5, 6 and 7 appear to have rendered him defenceless.

According to Dr. Vanezis the final head wounds (nos. 1 - 4) were received within a short space of time, i.e. 4 shots in total, in 2 groups - 2 to the top of the head and 2 to the right hand side. Most likely this was in the Kitchen while Nevill Bamber's head was below the shooter and resting in the coal scuttle. If he was alive and his heart was beating during this final assault it would explain the large amount of blood running down the side of the scuttle and pooling on the floor.

[Holly Goodhead]

According to Dr. Vanezis the final head wounds (nos. 1 - 4) were received within a short space of time, i.e. 4 shots in total, in 2 groups - 2 to the top of the head and 2 to the right hand side. Most likely this was in the Kitchen while Nevill Bamber's head was below the shooter and resting in the coal scuttle. If he was alive and his heart was beating during this final assault it would explain the large amount of blood running down the side of the scuttle and pooling on the floor.

Yes that sounds very logical but I am confused about the location of the bullets pertaining to Nevill ie 4 in the bedroom, 1 on or around the stairs and 3 in the kitchen.  One theory is that a police officer picked up a bullet on his boot (don't think the only WPC went inside) from the kitchen and transferred it to the bedroom.  I guess this is a possibility?