The trial of Leonor and João Cipriano for the murder of Joana.

[Anna]

thanks Anna, appreciate all the hard work youve done....just trying to think of how many parents arrested charged and convicted  for the murder/accidental killingharm/that lead to death of their kids were innocent in the end.....its an extremely rare occurrence...so rare I dont think theres enough decimal places when writing a percentage....still......

Thank you for that, RB , I see where your coming from, but there are so many missing children and nobody arrested, because there is no proof of what became of them to charge anyone.

[Carana]

Well if you take her own admission, her attempts to exonerate her brother and all the circumstantial evidence I am not in the least surprised that the jury unanimously found her guilty.

Joana's body lies somewhere and that for me is the really sad fact in this case.  No wonder Gonçalo Amaral pays homage to her every year on 12 September.

Hmmm. I thought we were going to try to establish facts?

[Redblossom]

Thank you for that, RB , I see where your coming from, but there are so many missing children and nobody arrested, because there is no proof of what became of them to charge anyone.

But i was talking about people who have been arrested.....and this case is not one of a missing child with no suspects arrests charges or convictions

[Anna]

Okay, I am out.  Sorry if I got overheated about what I consider to be bordering on the obscene.

Sorry, Eleanor, I did not intend to offend you, or anyone

[Carana]

But i was talking about people who have been arrested.....and this case is not one of a missing child with no suspects arrests charges or convictions

I'm still trying to find any probative evidence that this child died.

[Anna]

Hmmm. I thought we were going to try to establish facts?

OK Carana,
 She went missing 12 sep 2004 at around 8.30 pm when she was last seen near the church with a shopping bag

[Redblossom]

I'm still trying to find any probative evidence that this child died.

Good luck then...I was asking Anna a question, after her response to me when I asked of those who thnk this is an unsafe conviction which of the following do you thnk occurred, to which she replied, hard to tell, to which i replied how many people have been found innocent after being charged and convicted with the death of a child, any thoughts on that?

[Redblossom]

OK Carana,
 She went missing 12 sep 2004 at around 8.30 pm when she was last seen near the church with a shopping bag

So they said though....any evidence for this? No....

This  fact is where she was last seen by an independent witness....

[AnneGuedes]

I'm still trying to find any probative evidence that this child died.

Have you found not probative evidence ?

[Anna]

So they said though....any evidence for this? No....

This  fact is where she was last seen by an independent witness....

That is very true RB She possibly didn't get that far, on her way home, but a witness none less

[Carana]

Have you found not probative evidence ?

Have you?

[Carana]

So they said though....any evidence for this? No....

This  fact is where she was last seen by an independent witness....

Walking towards home, according to a lady having a ciggie out her window.

[Redblossom]

That is very true RB She possibly didn't get that far, on her way home, but a witness none less

yes, I was just saying there is only an independentwitness who saw her alive on her way home....no independent witnesses to her being abducted or seeing a stranger nearby or anythng like that..so the witness statement cant mean joana went missing at 8 30 as she didnt see anything to warrant that

[Redblossom]

Walking towards home, according to a lady having a ciggie out her window.

So?

[Carana]

So?

Whether or not she was kidnapped or killed / murdered by family members, someone seeing her walking towards home doesn't prove that she actually got back home. The only other detail that she might have done seems to be this uncorroborated statement about shoes.

What about children who are kidnapped on their way to school? Does one witness who saw a kid on the road to school prove that they actually got there? Or children walking to a bus stop? Would one testimony prove that they actually got on the bus?