The trial of Leonor and João Cipriano for the murder of Joana.

[Anna]

Maybe check why  a mother  sends her eight yr old child to walk 500 metres around this part and that part two hours after the sun has gone down! and then doesnt miss her for ages and then doesnt report her missing for ages......maybe thats "normal" in some parts....though

When I was that age, I used to walk a mile to the village school, but that was well over 60 years ago 
  I do believe, it was said nothing like this had ever happened in Figueira

[Redblossom]

When I was that age, I used to walk a mile to the village school, but that was well over 60 years ago 
  I do believe, it was said nothing like this had ever happened in Figueira

Or PDL!!!

I know what you mean though....times are not the same though are they and she was sent out alone in the dark, dont small  villages have perverts?

[Anna]

Or PDL!!!

I know what you mean though....times are not the same though are they and she was sent out alone in the dark, dont small  villages have perverts?

I guess they are everywhere, never heard of any near my home or anywhere really until recent years, but until there is evidence or suspicions, parents just carry on as normal. Kids of that age played outside together in Fig and yet a child was taken doing just that, in Wales. I think these sort of people just grab the opportunity when they can. Its really sick 
As for PDL.....Abduction ????
It was dark when I got home from school around 4.30pm, maybe that's why schools changed to 3pm

[Anna]

Maybe check why  a mother  sends her eight yr old child to walk 500 metres around this part and that part two hours after the sun has gone down! and then doesnt miss her for ages and then doesnt report her missing for ages......maybe thats "normal" in some parts....though

Sorry RB, I didn't really answer your question Distance 430 Mtrs
I have no Idea how dark it was, but light enough to be seen by a few witnesses, up until she reached "near the church"
She was seen walking back (latest 8.40)
John went looking for her and met up with the stepfather at 9.15-9.30pm in Celia's
They all went home and Leonor went to Celias before they all started searching for her
Eventually Celia called police around 12,30 am and Leonor saw GNR by the church and reported it. They told her to report it tomorrow ( quick of the mark these police ! ) So they carried on searching (which any good parent would do) with no help from police, while John looked after the babies.
 So phoning earlier would it seem, have been a waste of time
Next morning Leonor and John officially reported it at the Office
Then searched and contacted more family etc, etc while relative made up leaflets to distribute
    Before you ask, Yes they did buy cakes about 2-3am because they probably hadn't eaten and what else can you buy at that hour to eat .

[Redblossom]

So all the circumstantial and other evidence in this case is all false?


joanna was abducted?

As for cakes wasnt it stated somewhere leonor sent joana out for hot cakes at some ungodly hour all the time.....Hello? yes? No?
Right or wrong? Never mind about that......

[Anna]

So all the circumstantial and other evidence in this case is all false?


joanna was abducted?

As for cakes wasnt it stated somewhere leonor sent joana out for hot cakes at some ungodly hour all the time.....Hello? yes? No?
Right or wrong? Never mind about that......

What substantial evidence to convict for murder are you referring too, RB ?
I don't know whether the child was abducted, sold or murdered, or by whom.
Do you know something I don't ?
Does sending a child for cakes,(which I must have missed) make you a murderer ?
The child was well looked after and very fond of her mum according to witnesses, but even if that was not the case, it is not evidence for murder, or do you think it is ?
I would be grateful, if you could direct me to the items I have missed

[Redblossom]

What substantial evidence to convict for murder are you referring too, RB ? I never referred to any substantial evidence, I just find it hard to believe anyone is convicted in no evidence at all....there is the circumstantial that the police out together, some of the so called circumstangial could be deemed physical evidence the child returned home, ie the food purchased, all her shoes owned being there, and there is the matter of the two confessions and also the matter of the third in a letter she wrote, that one was not regarding murder but agreeing to selling her child which is different

I don't know whether the child was abducted, sold or murdered, or by whom.
Do you know something I don't ? No
 
Does sending a child for cakes,(which I must have missed) make you a murderer ? No, never even intimated this
The child was well looked after and very fond of her mum according to witnesses, but even if that was not the case, it is not evidence for murder, or do you think it is ? No again
I would be grateful, if you could direct me to the items I have missed My only reason for mentioning the stupid cakes is because of the last paragraph in your last post to me, saying "and before you ask abou the cakes", the cakes never crossed my mind and I wasnt going to say anything about them being bought or what time, but seeing as you brought it up I mentioned anecdotal evidence, sic Cristovaos book on the case,  that Leonor had a habit of sending Joana out at 3-4am to buy hot cakes!

Reply in green.....

[Carana]

I'm not sure I'd count on Cristovão's book as being particularly accurate. It's not mentioned at all in the baker's statement.

[Anna]

So all the circumstantial and other evidence in this case is all false?


joanna was abducted?

As for cakes wasnt it stated somewhere leonor sent joana out for hot cakes at some ungodly hour all the time.....Hello? yes? No?
Right or wrong? Never mind about that......

I am sorry if I have offended you in some way RB This is where you mentioned the cakes
The rest can be looked up

[Redblossom]

I'm not sure I'd count on Cristovão's book as being particularly accurate. It's not mentioned at all in the baker's statement.

Im not saying its true or not..its anecdotal, it might be, and not everything gets into police statements all the time

http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2008/04/smears-against-gonalo-amaral-portuguese.html

Scroll down to:
The Star of Joana - A Estrela de Joana
A summary of the Paulo Pereira Cristóvão's book done by Astro

Joana adored her mother, in spite of all the abuse she suffers at her mother's hands. Leonor often sends Joana at 3 or 4 a.m. to walk to a nearby cake factory, because Leonor likes to eat warm cakes.

Thats all

[Redblossom]

I am sorry if I have offended you in some way RB This is where you mentioned the cakes
The rest can be looked up

You didnt offend me, I was just thrown by you saying to me," before you mention the cakes", I never mentioned anything like that.....doesnt matter, its not important

[Carana]

Im not saying its true or not..its anecdotal, it might be, and not everything gets into police statements all the time

Fair enough, but the prosecution was highlighting every possible negative aspect, and that doesn't appear anywhere as far as I can see. Reading through the (untranslated) statements, I can't find anything to suggest that Leonor mistreated her. She ran the odd errand, helped around the house and helped look after the two younger ones, but also had friends and played. All of the witnesses who were asked said that they'd had never seen Leonor smacking her, nor heard rumours to that effect. In Leandro's (press) interview, he said he'd never even see her shout at her.

[Anna]

Fair enough, but the prosecution was highlighting every possible negative aspect, and that doesn't appear anywhere as far as I can see. Reading through the (untranslated) statements, I can't find anything to suggest that Leonor mistreated her. She ran the odd errand, helped around the house and helped look after the two younger ones, but also had friends and played. All of the witnesses who were asked said that they'd had never seen Leonor smacking her, nor heard rumours to that effect. In Leandro's (press) interview, he said he'd never even see her shout at her.

As 2006 appeal
16- That the defendant John has time to have a beer with the Leandro and Carlos, in "Pastries ... ", to delay the return of them to home;



Do you know of any witnesses who saw Joana's purchases in the house ?,
or anyone who saw her going in her house?
 and did anyone who lived in the house state that all her shoes were there ?
I can't seem to find this anywhere !

It's a shame really, that the only sites who have translated to English are .....What's the word ???

[Eleanor]

Is this the Cristovao who has recently been indicted on five criminal charges?  The one who was sacked from The PJ for stealing 80 Euros?
The Cristovao who made up the story of Kate and six dead bodies.

[Redblossom]

Fair enough, but the prosecution was highlighting every possible negative aspect, and that doesn't appear anywhere as far as I can see. Reading through the (untranslated) statements, I can't find anything to suggest that Leonor mistreated her. She ran the odd errand, helped around the house and helped look after the two younger ones, but also had friends and played. All of the witnesses who were asked said that they'd had never seen Leonor smacking her, nor heard rumours to that effect. In Leandro's (press) interview, he said he'd never even see her shout at her.

Thats what prosecution teams do......and defence teams respond likewise.....i dont think the issue is really that she was a badly mistreated kid.....