The trial of Leonor and João Cipriano for the murder of Joana.

[Eleanor]

Thats what prosecution teams do......and defence teams respond likewise.....i dont think the issue is really that she was a badly mistreated kid.....

Since the Incest claims were unproven, one might wonder why Leonor suddenly took to beating the child to death.

[Redblossom]

Since the Incest claims were unproven, one might wonder why Leonor suddenly took to beating the child to death.

Well if you are going to bring it up, unproven doesnt mean untrue.....not that I have any opinion on the allegations...but there might be motive there.....IF true

[Eleanor]

Well if you are going to bring it up, unproven doesnt mean untrue.....not that I have any opinion on the allegations...but there might be motive there.....IF true

The Court didn't agree with you.  So where is the motive?

[sadie]

Why should Kate McCann refute the allegation?  She isn't beholden to answer to you.

The allegation is in his book.  It is he who needs to prove it.  But since it has gone absolutely no where then I think we can discard it, don't you?

He hasn't been indicted on five Criminal Charges because he is a nice and honest man.

I endorse Eleanors statement.  Tbh, I thought that Cristavao had been indicted on seven Criminal Charges ... and they are pretty nasty ones IIRC.  But I will accept five, because I totally trust Eleanor.

Not the sort of man you would chose as a pal.

[Eleanor]

I endorse Eleanors statement.  Tbh, I thought that Cristavao had been indicted on seven Criminal Charges ... and they are pretty nasty ones IIRC.  But I will accept five, because I totally trust Eleanor.

Not the sort of man you would chose as a pal.

Actually, Sadie, you could be right.  It could be seven charges.  I was just being conservative.  And no one is going to accuse me of lying if I under estimate.

And Yes, they are all nasty charges.

[Anna]

Actually, Sadie, you could be right.  It could be seven charges.  I was just being conservative.  And no one is going to accuse me of lying if I under estimate.

And Yes, they are all nasty charges.

The Public Prosecutor formally accused, on 14 December, the ex-vice-president of Sporting, Paulo Pereira Cristovao, seven crimes, among which circumvents qualified, money laundering, embezzlement, complainant qualified slandering devassa through computerised and illegitimate access qualified.

http://www.cmjornal.xl.pt/detalhe/noticias/sport/sporting/paulo-pereira-cristovao-acusado

[sadie]

The Public Prosecutor formally accused, on 14 December, the ex-vice-president of Sporting, Paulo Pereira Cristovao, seven crimes, among which circumvents qualified, money laundering, embezzlement, complainant qualified slandering devassa through computerised and illegitimate access qualified.

http://www.cmjornal.xl.pt/detalhe/noticias/sport/sporting/paulo-pereira-cristovao-acusado

Nice bloke, eh , anna !


And he helped Amaral co-ordinate this case, I believe.

He is also a story teller with two or three books about missing children.

Tbh, I dont believe a word he says, but some on here tend to hang onto every word said by him and Amaral.  Amaral, another PJ Officer, but convicted this time of Perjury, so we can safely refer to him as a liar, where as with Christavao he has not been convicted of anything.  Seems omminous tho with seven counts against him.

[Carana]

John posted a few articles here:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3031.0

Interesting to note how the media tone changes as of 21 Sept, when the boys from Faro took over...

[Carana]

Soooo... Still no body, no motive, no weapons, no probative forensic evidence, no cctv, a "voluntary reconstruction", a few negative points in the few translated testimonies, many (non-translated) comments mainly stating that Leonor had never been known to have even shouted at her.

That's it... to get convicted for life?

What happened to Joana and where is she, dead or potentially alive?

[John]

Soooo... Still no body, no motive, no weapons, no probative forensic evidence, no cctv, a "voluntary reconstruction", a few negative points in the few translated testimonies, many (non-translated) comments mainly stating that Leonor had never been known to have even shouted at her.

That's it... to get convicted for life?

What happened to Joana and where is she, dead or potentially alive?

Not quite irrespective of the wishful thinking.  No body but plenty of false trails offered by her uncle João as to where her remains were discarded, not exactly the actions of an innocent man.  Then there are the missing tools testified to by the murdered girl's stepfather and the presence of all her footwear in the family home.  Finally, not forgetting the evidence of a neighbour who saw Joanna on her return journey carrying her shopping and last but not least we have the confession of the mother on her first appearance before the investigating magistrate.  All together a sorry mess and most certainly not the actions of a loving mother whose daughter had simply disappeared.

All we need now to conclude this sorry tale is to know what exactly did the murderous twosome do with Joana's remains?  Was she fed to the pigs, buried somewhere or sent in the boot of a car to a breakers yard in Spain to be crushed?

[Anna]

Soooo... Still no body, no motive, no weapons, no probative forensic evidence, no cctv, a "voluntary reconstruction", a few negative points in the few translated testimonies, many (non-translated) comments mainly stating that Leonor had never been known to have even shouted at her.

That's it... to get convicted for life?

What happened to Joana and where is she, dead or potentially alive?

I read Johns articles .he's doing a good job there ! I already have the translated ones saved with many other news articles however.
I think it is highly unlikely that Joana is alive and I am sure she must have been apprehended on the backroad home.

[John]

I haven't had a chance to get back into the newspaper articles Anna but I will do so over the next few days.  I want to make everything available in English so that readers can see for themselves the build up to the trial and the trial evidence itself.

I believe it is about time the myths in this case were dispelled for once and for all regardless of the language barrier.

[sadie]

I read Johns articles .he's doing a good job there ! I already have the translated ones saved with many other news articles however.
I think it is highly unlikely that Joana is alive and I am sure she must have been apprehended on the backroad home.

I agree that Joana was likely abducted on the way home.

I dont think I agree with you over the likely route home, but I am open minded of course.

I prefer the route up the curved steps of the church as described by a smoking witness sitting IIRC outside his home (?on his balcony?).  This is the route that John describes.  The only likely abduction place there would be if she chose to take the northern path around the church, by the school.  There are only public looking buildings there with no houses at the NW corner of the church plaza.   She would be totally out of sight to anyone and there is also plenty of out-of-general sight parking there.


However, there is a possible variation to that path that nobody seems to have noticed.  Just 3 or 4 houses east of Joanas house there is a metal ladder which appears permanent leaning up against the road way wall.  This wall appears to be in excess of 6ft tall.  Everything is hilly in the area, and there is a gap between the houses at that point.  The gap links the upper road to the lower road. 

Did the locals use that gap as a shortcut?  Did Joana come down that incline between the houses to be grabbed by someone?

Street lighting at either end ... but the upstands are wide concrete and the lamps themselves are on the wrong side of the upstands to throw light on that cut thru.  They light the roads but not the cut thru.  There are no house windows that I can see closely overlooking either the short cut itself or the area at the bottom. 

There is parking at the bottom in a recessed car park.


Had Joana used this cut thru, or even intended to use it, then your route back, anna, would have been shorter and comes into the picture again, imo.  Likewise this cut thru is a slight short cut for the church route.



So we have three possible abduction places
1)  On the route across waste land that anna pointed out earlier
2)  Between the church and the ?school
3)  On this short cut just about 3 - 4 houses along from Joanas home

[John]

The village was seething on that particular day due to the fair activities.  Not an environment that any potential abductor would relish.  Too many eyes staring!

[Carana]

The village was seething on that particular day due to the fair activities.  Not an environment that any potential abductor would relish.  Too many eyes staring!

Would the fair have attracted people from beyond the village, or not? Village fêtes that I know would. The festivities weren't at the home end of the village, were they? Little MariLuz was abducted and killed in a village without anyone noticing. And it was just "luck" that someone at the swimming pool saw little Ylenia with a man after she'd gone to collect her shampoo that she'd forgotten.