The trial of Leonor and João Cipriano for the murder of Joana.

[Carana]

Not quite irrespective of the wishful thinking.  No body but plenty of false trails offered by her uncle João as to where her remains were discarded, not exactly the actions of an innocent man.  Then there are the missing tools testified to by the murdered girl's stepfather and the presence of all her footwear in the family home.  Finally, not forgetting the evidence of a neighbour who saw Joanna on her return journey carrying her shopping and last but not least we have the confession of the mother on her first appearance before the investigating magistrate.  All together a sorry mess and most certainly not the actions of a loving mother whose daughter had simply disappeared.

All we need now to conclude this sorry tale is to know what exactly did the murderous twosome do with Joana's remains?  Was she fed to the pigs, buried somewhere or sent in the boot of a car to a breakers yard in Spain to be crushed?

- João could either be one of those manipulative nutters who crave power, or could have been beaten and threatened with worse and gave a false confession. He had a dodgy background and doesn't seem to have been particularly popular.

If he had made a false confession, the next question was obviously what had he done with the body. If he really didn't know, but was being threatened, I find it plausible that he invented new possibilities to keep beatings, or worse, at bay.

- The missing tools: one was a knife with a black handle. Leandro said they didn't have any large knives with black handles. The saw: Leandro did say that he had a similar one at some time, but couldn't find it, when asked. In his press interview, he said he didn't know where João could have got it from, unless he'd stolen it from a neighbour. That comment gave me the impression that it wasn't an object that he would have used sufficiently frequently to notice that it was missing, let alone when.

- The presence of all her footwear: there's nothing to corroborate that other than one witness statement by someone who didn't even live there.

- Yes, there's a witness statement that she was seen on her way home with her shopping.

- Yes, it would seem that Leonor had made a confession to an accidental death after several days of interrogation... but under what conditions?

[Carana]

I haven't had a chance to get back into the newspaper articles Anna but I will do so over the next few days.  I want to make everything available in English so that readers can see for themselves the build up to the trial and the trial evidence itself.

I believe it is about time the myths in this case were dispelled for once and for all regardless of the language barrier.

Thanks, John, for the articles that you've posted so far. I find it interesting that the slant changed as of 21 Sept 04 when the Faro boys moved in. 

[Carana]

I haven't had a chance to get back into the newspaper articles Anna but I will do so over the next few days.  I want to make everything available in English so that readers can see for themselves the build up to the trial and the trial evidence itself.

I believe it is about time the myths in this case were dispelled for once and for all regardless of the language barrier.

- How would tabloid articles prior to the trial dispel myths in a country in which judicial secrecy is supposedly enforced until the trial?

- Perhaps your Portuguese contacts could translate the rest of the witness statements?

-

[Carana]

Not quite irrespective of the wishful thinking.  No body but plenty of false trails offered by her uncle João as to where her remains were discarded, not exactly the actions of an innocent man.  Then there are the missing tools testified to by the murdered girl's stepfather and the presence of all her footwear in the family home.  Finally, not forgetting the evidence of a neighbour who saw Joanna on her return journey carrying her shopping and last but not least we have the confession of the mother on her first appearance before the investigating magistrate.  All together a sorry mess and most certainly not the actions of a loving mother whose daughter had simply disappeared.

All we need now to conclude this sorry tale is to know what exactly did the murderous twosome do with Joana's remains?  Was she fed to the pigs, buried somewhere or sent in the boot of a car to a breakers yard in Spain to be crushed?

I don't quite understand the purpose of this forum. You state that you were a victim of a miscarriage of justice, yet you don't seem to be open to the idea that this case may have also been a miscarriage of justice.

Why not?

I'm well aware that people sometimes say that their child has been kidnapped to hide a death due to abuse or whatever. However, in the case of Joana Cipriano, I can't find anything that would substantiate that.

If your Portuguese contacts are willing to translate, perhaps you could ask them to translate the witness statements retained by the Supreme Court before pre-trial media speculation?

Just a thought.

[Redblossom]

I don't quite understand the purpose of this forum. You state that you were a victim of a miscarriage of justice, yet you don't seem to be open to the idea that this case may have also been a miscarriage of justice.

Why not?

I'm well aware that people sometimes say that their child has been kidnapped to hide a death due to abuse or whatever. However, in the case of Joana Cipriano, I can't find anything that would substantiate that.

If your Portuguese contacts are willing to translate, perhaps you could ask them to translate the witness statements retained by the Supreme Court before pre-trial media speculation?

Just a thought.

Arent you forgetting them agreeing to sell their daughter? And then passing it off as an abduction? Do you consider every single confession of Leonor and her brothers as bogus? Is there any statement by them that refutes ALL confessions?

Do you honestly believe someone would be sent to jail for life on NO evidence? Well, its not life for Leonor she will be out soon

[Carana]

Miscarriages of justice happen in every country. Hopefully, more modern police and prosecution procedures have reduced them, or are in the process of trying to.

[Redblossom]

Miscarriages of justice happen in every country. Hopefully, more modern police and prosecution procedures have reduced them, or are in the process of trying to.

They do
But you didnt answer the previous post

[Carana]

They do
But you didnt answer the previous post

I'm aware that stories have changed over time. How much of that may be due to beating or psychological games? How much may be due to lawyers' advice? I don't know.

For a long time, I just assumed that they were guilty of the gruesome tale. It was only when I started to examine the so-called evidence that I began to wonder what on earth the evidence actually was.

And that's where I'm at. What evidence is there?

[Carana]

According to Leandro's press interview, João apparently thought that Leonor had sold her and that Leandro's family pocketed the money; Leandro wouldn't have put it past João to have sold her, but also thought that supermarket lady or someone else may have taken her; Leonor seemingly thought the same (but also thought that a stranger may have taken her).

If they all think that someone else had sold her... then it doesn't seem as if any of them actually believe in the fridge/freezer "reconstruction".

[sadie]

Arent you forgetting them agreeing to sell their daughter? And then passing it off as an abduction? Do you consider every single confession of Leonor and her brothers as bogus? Is there any statement by them that refutes ALL confessions?

Do you honestly believe someone would be sent to jail for life on NO evidence? Well, its not life for Leonor she will be out soon

Red
Read Caranas very wise words and digest.

The real evidence is non existent.    The case should NOT have happened and would NOT have happened in any true Democracy.  It was a farce.


I do not like the sound of important people being involved, and wonder if an extremely lucrative  racket is going on?
 
I fear for Leonors safety when she is released eventually ... and will personally be keeping a watchful eye open for her.  I hope others will too.

[Redblossom]

I'm aware that stories have changed over time. How much of that may be due to beating or psychological games? How much may be due to lawyers' advice? I don't know.

For a long time, I just assumed that they were guilty of the gruesome tale. It was only when I started to examine the so-called evidence that I began to wonder what on earth the evidence actually was.

And that's where I'm at. What evidence is there?

Beatings? Psyche games? Lawyers' advice? To produce a different version time after time? How many different confessions does anyone, suspects or police need? If Joana was abducted none of them would have tried to pin the blame on each other! IMO

Something rotten in the state of Denmark here as they say....

[Carana]

Beatings? Psyche games? Lawyers' advice? To produce a different version time after time? How many different confessions does anyone, suspects or police need? If Joana was abducted none of them would have tried to pin the blame on each other! IMO

Something rotten in the state of Denmark here as they say....

That might depend on what you'd been through during interrogations. If the "interviews" * had been recorded on video, I might be less sceptical.

* Not just "interviews", but the entire process from when they were taken in to when they were taken out.

IFFFF CCTV had been part of PJ questioning procedures, it would have presumably been relatively easy to prove who was lying.

[Redblossom]

That might depend on what you'd been through during interrogations. If the "interviews" * had been recorded on video, I might be less sceptical.

* Not just "interviews", but the entire process from when they were taken in to when they were taken out.

IFFFF CCTV had been part of PJ questioning procedures, it would have presumably been relatively easy to prove who was lying.

Sorry but youre still ignoring the issue if multiple and different content confessions

[Carana]

Sorry but youre still ignoring the issue if multiple and different content confessions

I'm not ignoring them. What isn't clear to me is the circumstances in which they were obtained.

[Redblossom]

I'm not ignoring them. What isn't clear to me is the circumstances in which they were obtained.

circumstances?

why would any circumstance change a confession time and time again....is there a specific type that was wanted? It makes no sense to me...leonor made a confession to the judge in sept 04....she then alledgedly made another one under duress n october and then two years later made another...was that the last one? Her brother made at least two different nes didnt he?

this is not normal