Author Topic: Statistically...what are the chances that Maddie was abducted..  (Read 228903 times)

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Offline colombosstogey

Re: Statistically...what are the chances that Maddie was abducted..
« Reply #15 on: December 31, 2013, 07:12:36 AM »
Stranger abduction is indeed exceptionally rare. As we know, the vast majority of abductions involve custody and other family disputes, or someone close to the family.

Anne Guedes, in my opinion, makes an important point when she asks if there has ever been a case of abduction from bed on the European continent. As far as I have managed to find out - and Anne has also put the question to the forum many times - there appear to be no recorded instances.

I have found half a dozen or so relatively recent American cases of abduction from bed (or from the private quarters of homes during the night). Still no European examples however.

So it is fair to say that if we speak of abduction from 5A, we are speaking about something incredibly rare indeed; possibly about something that has never before happened in Europe.

And if we are talking about abduction in the sense of Madeleine having wandered into the street and  falling prey to someone who 'got lucky', that is obviously a highly unusual situation too.

Having said all that, parental involvement in the child's death or disappearance -  a much more likely scenario in terms of statistics in the abstract  -   in this particular case, would entail the parents' guilt of other major crimes (perverting the course of justice in several countries; serious fraud, to name but two) as well.

Rare as abduction may be, one is phenomenally hard pressed to find any case of murder/serious harm to a person that involves not only the degree but the combination of different types of corruption, criminality, and deception - and the psychopathic tendencies to go with -  that would be implied in accusing the McCanns of harming or concealing their daughter.

If the McCanns were guilty of all these things - because if guilty of one, they are guilty of all - the case would be a world first in its scale and scope. Can anyone find a precedent or statistics for a crime like that? I suggest there are none. In the words of King David, 'there is nothing new under the sun', and on that basis I find the likelihood of the McCanns being guilty to be almost nil.

I also note that despite the rarity of abduction from bed, there have been many abduction and missing person cases in the Iberian Peninsula and other parts of the Mediterranean in recent years, and I believe that it is within that context that we ought to be considering Madeleine's disappearance.

This cultural approach was brought home to me whilst reading some of the theories of 'profiler' Pat Brown. Her almost totally US-centric  (and therefore frequently factually incorrect) vision of just about every aspect -  linguistic, cultural, legal, geographic - of this case was a powerful demonstration to me that looking at life on the ground and understanding the cultural context of an event is crucial.

This all leads in the direction of the many strange people witnessed to be in the vicinity of 5A in the days prior to Madeleine's disappearance, with the knowledge in mind that there are numerous individuals and groups in the area and all around Europe who are known to be preying on youngsters for all kinds of reasons. Then there is the geographical position of Portugal itself: part of mainland Europe both legally and physically, and in close proximity also to Africa and the rest of the Mediterranean. This broadening of geographic possibilities increases vastly the number of possible predators and motives, and therefore magnifies the statistical likelihood that Madeleine could have found her way into the hands of an unsavoury person or been passed along a chain.

Apologies for the long-windedness of the answer and the dearth of percentages. Bottom line, as unlikely as it may be in the wider scheme of things, I believe abduction here to be a much more than likely scenario in comparison to the other options.

So are you saying that she wandered out and was taken by a gang working in the Iberian Penisula? The location I agree with, it would be easy to move a child and end up even in Africa, but I dont agree with this particular location.

 PDL is a close knit community and very popular with expats.

Not only that it was slightly out of season so not as busy as it would be in the summer months, where a lot of strangers hanging about would not have been so much noticed or standing out like sore thumbs.

Yes we are told there were odd people seen, but were there really? Its a biggish village with people toing and froing hardly unusual to see a few odd people stood about.

You mentioned quite a few children taken in the Iberian Penisular. I actually checked every single missing child in Portugal, and a high percentage of them were by family or someone they knew and although no body found it was thought they had died. I found one where they believe the boy had been taken by a gang, but then there is a guy I believe in prison over him....

Sadly there are so many lost children in Eastern Europe that gangs do not need to take children away from holiday camps.

As to the McCanns well yes you make a good point, but it does happen. Just recently the lady in france comes to mind she kept it up for months..........http://www.thelocal.fr/20130926/mother-of-missing-fiona-admits-daughter-was-killed

There have been other cases of this all over the world.....

The McCanns are not normal people either, they are professional people used to dealing with difficult decisions and also they have friends in high places. They could have done it and got away with it I am a cynic until someone shows me POSITIVE proof they had nothing to do with their childs disappearance there will always be that doubt in my mind.

As to the chances of the child being abducted. I would say about 5% chance. I think she could have been taken by someone who she knew it niggles me but I think she knew the person who took her, and she went on foot...through the front door.

I think you have given it a lot of thought, but for me the location was totally WRONG.

Thats why there has never been a child taken from bed in this are EVER....tooooo risky.



Offline Benice

Re: Statistically...what are the chances that Maddie was abducted..
« Reply #16 on: December 31, 2013, 09:10:13 AM »
I'm puzzled why the fact that no identical abduction case can be referred back to should be used as a reason why Madeleine could not have been abducted from her bed.   As far as I know no two abduction cases are the same - they are all individual and different.     I'd never heard of a child being abducted from her bath until fairly recently - but that happened.

If it was a premeditated planned abduction, then the Ocean club in PdL is an ideal location IMO.   

Holiday resorts are constantly full of strange faces as holidaymakers come and go.   

It is on the coastline, so escape could be made by boat or by road. 

There was no CCTV at the complex. 

It was advertised as a child-friendly place. 

IIRC The general public were allowed to go in and out.

5A was ideally situated and described as a burglars dream IIRC by the UK police. 

IMO the fact that Madeleine was abducted on the night before the last night of the holiday is very pertinent - as the perpetrator would be aware that routines can change on the last night - as people prepare to depart  the following day.

I also think the PT laws may have been a factor.   In Portugal if a child disappears it appears there is no immediate media public campaign to draw attention to that fact - as there would be in other countries.  IMO that lack of publicity would be seen as a massive advantage to would-be abductor(s).     

All in all therefore it seems to me that anyone planning to abduct a child would have concluded that PdL, the child friendly Ocean club and apartment 5A fitted the bill perfectly - especially if more than one abductor was involved.


 




   

The notion that innocence prevails over guilt – when there is no evidence to the contrary – is what separates civilization from barbarism.    Unfortunately, there are remains of barbarism among us.    Until very recently, it headed the PJ in Portimão. I hope he was the last one.
                                               Henrique Monteiro, chief editor, Expresso, Portugal

stephen25000

  • Guest
Re: Statistically...what are the chances that Maddie was abducted..
« Reply #17 on: December 31, 2013, 09:27:23 AM »
I'm puzzled why the fact that no identical abduction case can be referred back to should be used as a reason why Madeleine could not have been abducted from her bed.   As far as I know no two abduction cases are the same - they are all individual and different.     I'd never heard of a child being abducted from her bath until fairly recently - but that happened.

If it was a premeditated planned abduction, then the Ocean club in PdL is an ideal location IMO.   

Holiday resorts are constantly full of strange faces as holidaymakers come and go.   

It is on the coastline, so escape could be made by boat or by road. 

There was no CCTV at the complex. 

It was advertised as a child-friendly place. 

IIRC The general public were allowed to go in and out.

5A was ideally situated and described as a burglars dream IIRC by the UK police. 

IMO the fact that Madeleine was abducted on the night before the last night of the holiday is very pertinent - as the perpetrator would be aware that routines can change on the last night - as people prepare to depart  the following day.

I also think the PT laws may have been a factor.   In Portugal if a child disappears it appears there is no immediate media public campaign to draw attention to that fact - as there would be in other countries.  IMO that lack of publicity would be seen as a massive advantage to would-be abductor(s).     

All in all therefore it seems to me that anyone planning to abduct a child would have concluded that PdL, the child friendly Ocean club and apartment 5A fitted the bill perfectly - especially if more than one abductor was involved.


 




 

So why not 'abduct'  Madeleine's younger sister ?

Far easier to carry and less hassle.

Offline Wonderfulspam

Re: Statistically...what are the chances that Maddie was abducted..
« Reply #18 on: December 31, 2013, 09:32:37 AM »
So why not 'abduct'  Madeleine's younger sister ?

Far easier to carry and less hassle.

Maybe the abductor gang had planned to snatch all 3 children but they were disturbed in the process by a burglar opening the shutters.
Christian Brueckner Fan Club

Offline jassi

Re: Statistically...what are the chances that Maddie was abducted..
« Reply #19 on: December 31, 2013, 09:33:59 AM »
Maybe the abductor gang had planned to snatch all 3 children but they were disturbed in the process by a burglar opening the shutters.

Gang ?  There isn't any evidence of even a single abductor, let alone a gang of them.
I believe everything. And l believe nothing.
I suspect everyone. And l suspect no one.
I gather the facts, examine the clues... and before   you know it, the case is solved!"

Or maybe not -

OG have been pushed out by the Germans who have reserved all the deck chairs for the foreseeable future

Offline Benice

Re: Statistically...what are the chances that Maddie was abducted..
« Reply #20 on: December 31, 2013, 09:37:55 AM »
So why not 'abduct'  Madeleine's younger sister ?

Far easier to carry and less hassle.

How could anyone say - without knowing the reasons behind Madeleine's abduction.   Only the abductor(s) can answer that.
The notion that innocence prevails over guilt – when there is no evidence to the contrary – is what separates civilization from barbarism.    Unfortunately, there are remains of barbarism among us.    Until very recently, it headed the PJ in Portimão. I hope he was the last one.
                                               Henrique Monteiro, chief editor, Expresso, Portugal

Offline Wonderfulspam

Re: Statistically...what are the chances that Maddie was abducted..
« Reply #21 on: December 31, 2013, 09:39:20 AM »
Gang ?

The gang of abductors who carried out detailed surveillance of the McCanns movements during their holiday.

It would have been too much work for one lone pervert surely so the abductor must have had help.
Christian Brueckner Fan Club

stephen25000

  • Guest
Re: Statistically...what are the chances that Maddie was abducted..
« Reply #22 on: December 31, 2013, 09:40:49 AM »
How could anyone say - without knowing the reasons behind Madeleine's abduction.   Only the abductor(s) can answer that.

Only if you believe in an abduction.............................

Offline Benice

Re: Statistically...what are the chances that Maddie was abducted..
« Reply #23 on: December 31, 2013, 09:56:02 AM »
Gang ?  There isn't any evidence of even a single abductor, let alone a gang of them.

Madeleine had disappeared and the shutters and window had been opened by person or persons unknown.   That is evidence of an abduction.   

Whether you want to believe it or not is immateriail -  as the people who matter - i.e. SY -  obviously do believe the McCanns account of how they found the room as they are treating this case as one of 'stranger abduction'.   

Anyone who thinks the SY team came to to that conclusion lightly - is being totally unrealistic IMO.



   

 



The notion that innocence prevails over guilt – when there is no evidence to the contrary – is what separates civilization from barbarism.    Unfortunately, there are remains of barbarism among us.    Until very recently, it headed the PJ in Portimão. I hope he was the last one.
                                               Henrique Monteiro, chief editor, Expresso, Portugal

stephen25000

  • Guest
Re: Statistically...what are the chances that Maddie was abducted..
« Reply #24 on: December 31, 2013, 10:00:38 AM »
Madeleine had disappeared and the shutters and window had been opened by person or persons unknown.   That is evidence of an abduction.   

Whether you want to believe it or not is immateriail -  as the people who matter - i.e. SY -  obviously do believe the McCanns account of how they found the room as they are treating this case as one of 'stranger abduction'.   

Anyone who thinks the SY team came to to that conclusion lightly - is being totally unrealistic IMO.



   

 

Madeleine disappeared YES.

Shutters and windows opened, there is no proof of that.

 

Offline Lace

Re: Statistically...what are the chances that Maddie was abducted..
« Reply #25 on: December 31, 2013, 10:23:46 AM »
Well SY and the PJ have come to the same conclusion that Madeleine was abducted,   that is good enough for me.

stephen25000

  • Guest
Re: Statistically...what are the chances that Maddie was abducted..
« Reply #26 on: December 31, 2013, 10:29:53 AM »
Well SY and the PJ have come to the same conclusion that Madeleine was abducted,   that is good enough for me.


Do SY or other police forces always get it right ?

Clearly NO.

Meanwhile a 'belief' is nothing without facts.

So what facts prove abduction exactly ?


Offline Benice

Re: Statistically...what are the chances that Maddie was abducted..
« Reply #27 on: December 31, 2013, 10:32:32 AM »
Madeleine disappeared YES.

Shutters and windows opened, there is no proof of that.

Only in your opinion Stephen.  Kate McCann is a witness to the window/shutters being open and it's obvious that SY have deemed her to be a credible witness. 

The first task IMO for the SY Team would have been to thoroughly investigate and examine the McCanns and their friends-  both on a personal face to face basis and also by conducting all kinds of  background checks on them.      It's obvious that those investigations produced nothing to cast any doubt on the veracity of the McCanns and their friends. 

If that wasn't the case there would have been no public announcement by SY that neither the McCanns nor their friends were considered to be suspects or even persons of interest in this case.

If you believe you are better situated to know more than the SY Team know about this case and to believe your knowledge of the McCanns and their friends is superior to theirs  -  then that's your prerogative. 

 

   
The notion that innocence prevails over guilt – when there is no evidence to the contrary – is what separates civilization from barbarism.    Unfortunately, there are remains of barbarism among us.    Until very recently, it headed the PJ in Portimão. I hope he was the last one.
                                               Henrique Monteiro, chief editor, Expresso, Portugal

Offline Montclair

Re: Statistically...what are the chances that Maddie was abducted..
« Reply #28 on: December 31, 2013, 10:36:08 AM »
Well SY and the PJ have come to the same conclusion that Madeleine was abducted,   that is good enough for me.

Double post. Sorry
« Last Edit: December 31, 2013, 10:38:39 AM by Montclair »

Offline Montclair

Re: Statistically...what are the chances that Maddie was abducted..
« Reply #29 on: December 31, 2013, 10:37:43 AM »
Well SY and the PJ have come to the same conclusion that Madeleine was abducted,   that is good enough for me.

What gives you the idea that the PJ have concluded that Madeleine was abducted? No one situation has ever been confirmed since the investigation was never carried to full term. Even in the shelving report, all hypotheses are considered, not just one.