Author Topic: Statistically...what are the chances that Maddie was abducted..  (Read 236822 times)

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Offline Mr Gray

Re: Statistically...what are the chances that Maddie was abducted..
« Reply #240 on: January 01, 2014, 09:04:26 PM »
It is a libel case, it has nothing to do with distress.  The McCanns have to prove that what Mr Amaral published in his book was untruthful and damaged their reputations.  I have seen and heard nothing from any McCann witness which could in any way support this claim.

If Madeleine was found alive and well tomorrow he would be screwed but as it is his theory is no more or no less valid than the McCanns is.

 angelo...are you trying to derail this thread by posting off topic

Redblossom

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Re: Statistically...what are the chances that Maddie was abducted..
« Reply #241 on: January 01, 2014, 09:09:12 PM »
angelo...are you trying to derail this thread by posting off topic

No thats what you  do all the time.......to deflect from truths....and save your own sorry backside when busted.....no.need to attack angelo now desperado! Tara chuck!!!


 ?>)()<

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Statistically...what are the chances that Maddie was abducted..
« Reply #242 on: January 01, 2014, 09:23:27 PM »
No thats what you  do all the time.......to deflect from truths....and save your own sorry backside when busted.....no.need to attack angelo now desperado! Tara chuck!!!


 ?>)()<

 It was meant to be ironic and Im sure angelo realised

Offline Eleanor

Re: Statistically...what are the chances that Maddie was abducted..
« Reply #243 on: January 02, 2014, 01:42:28 AM »
It is a libel case, it has nothing to do with distress.  The McCanns have to prove that what Mr Amaral published in his book was untruthful and damaged their reputations.  I have seen and heard nothing from any McCann witness which could in any way support this claim.

If Madeleine was found alive and well tomorrow he would be screwed but as it is his theory is no more or no less valid than the McCanns is.

Distress caused to The McCanns is part of the claim.

Offline sadie

Re: Statistically...what are the chances that Maddie was abducted..
« Reply #244 on: January 02, 2014, 01:49:45 AM »
And all of Amaral's witnesses bar one were personal friends.  Which The Judge made a point of establishing.

But this is all beside the point.  Proving Distress and proving Bias of Witnesses are two different things.

And who would you expect The McCanns to call to prove their distress?

Or perhaps more to the point, who would you expect Amaral to call?
8@??)(

As usual an astute observation.  Wew shall have to wait and see what the judgement is.

Offline Victoria

Re: Statistically...what are the chances that Maddie was abducted..
« Reply #245 on: January 02, 2014, 08:55:32 AM »
It is a libel case, it has nothing to do with distress.  The McCanns have to prove that what Mr Amaral published in his book was untruthful and damaged their reputations.  I have seen and heard nothing from any McCann witness which could in any way support this claim.

If Madeleine was found alive and well tomorrow he would be screwed but as it is his theory is no more or no less valid than the McCanns is.

It is definitely a libel case then? It's just that some posters, like Luz, keep telling us it isn't a libel case and it's hard to keep track. So much misinformation and lies can be spread, even on these boards.

Offline Carana

Re: Statistically...what are the chances that Maddie was abducted..
« Reply #246 on: January 02, 2014, 12:27:47 PM »
Stranger abduction is indeed exceptionally rare. As we know, the vast majority of abductions involve custody and other family disputes, or someone close to the family.

Anne Guedes, in my opinion, makes an important point when she asks if there has ever been a case of abduction from bed on the European continent. As far as I have managed to find out - and Anne has also put the question to the forum many times - there appear to be no recorded instances.

I have found half a dozen or so relatively recent American cases of abduction from bed (or from the private quarters of homes during the night). Still no European examples however.

So it is fair to say that if we speak of abduction from 5A, we are speaking about something incredibly rare indeed; possibly about something that has never before happened in Europe.

And if we are talking about abduction in the sense of Madeleine having wandered into the street and  falling prey to someone who 'got lucky', that is obviously a highly unusual situation too.

Having said all that, parental involvement in the child's death or disappearance -  a much more likely scenario in terms of statistics in the abstract  -   in this particular case, would entail the parents' guilt of other major crimes (perverting the course of justice in several countries; serious fraud, to name but two) as well.

Rare as abduction may be, one is phenomenally hard pressed to find any case of murder/serious harm to a person that involves not only the degree but the combination of different types of corruption, criminality, and deception - and the psychopathic tendencies to go with -  that would be implied in accusing the McCanns of harming or concealing their daughter.

If the McCanns were guilty of all these things - because if guilty of one, they are guilty of all - the case would be a world first in its scale and scope. Can anyone find a precedent or statistics for a crime like that? I suggest there are none. In the words of King David, 'there is nothing new under the sun', and on that basis I find the likelihood of the McCanns being guilty to be almost nil.

I also note that despite the rarity of abduction from bed, there have been many abduction and missing person cases in the Iberian Peninsula and other parts of the Mediterranean in recent years, and I believe that it is within that context that we ought to be considering Madeleine's disappearance.

This cultural approach was brought home to me whilst reading some of the theories of 'profiler' Pat Brown. Her almost totally US-centric  (and therefore frequently factually incorrect) vision of just about every aspect -  linguistic, cultural, legal, geographic - of this case was a powerful demonstration to me that looking at life on the ground and understanding the cultural context of an event is crucial.

This all leads in the direction of the many strange people witnessed to be in the vicinity of 5A in the days prior to Madeleine's disappearance, with the knowledge in mind that there are numerous individuals and groups in the area and all around Europe who are known to be preying on youngsters for all kinds of reasons. Then there is the geographical position of Portugal itself: part of mainland Europe both legally and physically, and in close proximity also to Africa and the rest of the Mediterranean. This broadening of geographic possibilities increases vastly the number of possible predators and motives, and therefore magnifies the statistical likelihood that Madeleine could have found her way into the hands of an unsavoury person or been passed along a chain.

Apologies for the long-windedness of the answer and the dearth of percentages. Bottom line, as unlikely as it may be in the wider scheme of things, I believe abduction here to be a much more than likely scenario in comparison to the other options.

I agree. A few thoughts...

I don't, however, understand why the seeming lack of stories of abductions from bed in continental Europe is an issue, beyond contributing to a perception of rarity.

- Newborns do get abducted from hospitals by strangers, apparently generally by women desperate for a child. Therefore, the issue isn't just about a "bed", but an older child taken from a bed.

- Why the criterion of a bed, specifically? Would it have made a difference if she'd got up to go to the loo and was actually standing and about to holler?

- Kate mentioned several cases of strangers in children's bedrooms in Portugal and Redwood mentioned a case (whether that was one of the cases or a different one). None of those children appear to have been abducted, but circumstances may have prevented that happening.

Those harrowing stories weren't reported by the press. Which police force would have been responsible for investigating? If it wasn't the PJ, it would have been the GNR or PSP, dealing with minor crimes. Were the cases thoroughly investigated at the time? Without a criminal investigation, would there have been any forensic sweep to attempt to identify the perpetrators? If a child had "simply" been traumatised by a stranger, would that be sufficient to bring in the PJ? Or would it have been a strange detail in the break-in category? If some of the children had suffered a sexual assault, I can't imagine that the families would launch a publicity campaign, for privacy reasons and the fact that their children - at the end of the day - weren't missing or killed. Unless the police launched a public appeal, or leaked to the press, how would the mainstream press even know about them? Did any of these cases come to trial?

- There is the case of Caroline Dickinson who was raped and murdered in her bed in a youth hostel dorm. She wasn't abducted, and what happened to the poor girl is a thankfully rare occurrence, but it nonetheless did take place. That creep took a huge risk. If she'd been younger (and lighter), who knows if he might have disposed of the body? (As it happens, I disagree that a dog's alert represents a reliable indicator that Madeleine died in that apartment, if indeed she is dead.)



Offline Carana

Re: Statistically...what are the chances that Maddie was abducted..
« Reply #247 on: January 02, 2014, 01:31:48 PM »
An abduction from a holiday apartment does seem to be a rare occurrence.

I agree that:

- some cases of physical and/or sexual abuse leading to death are disguised as an apparent abduction.
How many of these have taken place on a holiday in a foreign country with a group of friends?

- there are cases of children being murdered, often followed by suicide, due to custody disputes. I have found nothing to suggest that there was any kind of custody dispute in this case.

- I've also found a few cases of seemingly normal couples in which one member suddenly flipped an emotional fuse and became violent to the point of causing death. I have found nothing to substantiate anything in that regard in this case.

On the other hand:

- why would a stranger abduction be less plausible than a family going on a group holiday in which several members of the group would have had to cover for each other on even an accidental death and concealment?

Would an accidental death during their absence in between 1/2 hour checks have seriously got them struck off the medical register and thus justify collusion? The only statement that there may have been a much longer period of time between a check on one night was from the elderly Mrs Fenn. But that wasn't corroborated.

- how would any one of them have disposed of her within such a short timeframe without anyone finding her? Where? When? How?

What experience did the local PJ actually have of such cases?




Offline Wonderfulspam

Re: Statistically...what are the chances that Maddie was abducted..
« Reply #248 on: January 02, 2014, 01:42:55 PM »
An abduction from a holiday apartment does seem to be a rare occurrence.

I agree that:

- some cases of physical and/or sexual abuse leading to death are disguised as an apparent abduction.
How many of these have taken place on a holiday in a foreign country with a group of friends?

- there are cases of children being murdered, often followed by suicide, due to custody disputes. I have found nothing to suggest that there was any kind of custody dispute in this case.

- I've also found a few cases of seemingly normal couples in which one member suddenly flipped an emotional fuse and became violent to the point of causing death. I have found nothing to substantiate anything in that regard in this case.

On the other hand:

- why would a stranger abduction be less plausible than a family going on a group holiday in which several members of the group would have had to cover for each other on even an accidental death and concealment?

Would an accidental death during their absence in between 1/2 hour checks have seriously got them struck off the medical register and thus justify collusion? The only statement that there may have been a much longer period of time between a check on one night was from the elderly Mrs Fenn. But that wasn't corroborated.

- how would any one of them have disposed of her within such a short timeframe without anyone finding her? Where? When? How?

What experience did the local PJ actually have of such cases?





'The only statement that there may have been a much longer period of time between a check on one night was from the elderly Mrs Fenn. But that wasn't corroborated.'


It would appear the AG had faith in Mrs Fenn's account.


"Pamela Fenn, who resides on the residential block's first floor, above the apartment that was occupied by the McCann family, clarified that on the 1st of May 2007, two days before her disappearance, at around 10.30 p.m., she heard a child crying, which from the sound would be MADELEINE and that she cried for an hour and fifteen minutes, until her parents arrived, at around 11.57 p.m.
 
This shows that the parents were not persistently worried about their children [and] that they didn't check on them like they afterwards declared they did, rather neglecting their duty to guard those same children, although not in a temerarious, or gross, manner."
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id136.html#adi9


"how would any one of them have disposed of her within such a short timeframe without anyone finding her? Where? When? How?"


In a large dumpster type bin.

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Offline Carana

Re: Statistically...what are the chances that Maddie was abducted..
« Reply #249 on: January 02, 2014, 02:18:29 PM »
'The only statement that there may have been a much longer period of time between a check on one night was from the elderly Mrs Fenn. But that wasn't corroborated.'


It would appear the AG had faith in Mrs Fenn's account.


"Pamela Fenn, who resides on the residential block's first floor, above the apartment that was occupied by the McCann family, clarified that on the 1st of May 2007, two days before her disappearance, at around 10.30 p.m., she heard a child crying, which from the sound would be MADELEINE and that she cried for an hour and fifteen minutes, until her parents arrived, at around 11.57 p.m.
 
This shows that the parents were not persistently worried about their children [and] that they didn't check on them like they afterwards declared they did, rather neglecting their duty to guard those same children, although not in a temerarious, or gross, manner."
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id136.html#adi9


"how would any one of them have disposed of her within such a short timeframe without anyone finding her? Where? When? How?"


In a large dumpster type bin.

That would seem plausible, whoever was responsible. But no body was found, was it? How thorough were the checks into dumpster bins at the time?

Offline Carana

Re: Statistically...what are the chances that Maddie was abducted..
« Reply #250 on: January 02, 2014, 02:28:00 PM »
'The only statement that there may have been a much longer period of time between a check on one night was from the elderly Mrs Fenn. But that wasn't corroborated.'


It would appear the AG had faith in Mrs Fenn's account.


"Pamela Fenn, who resides on the residential block's first floor, above the apartment that was occupied by the McCann family, clarified that on the 1st of May 2007, two days before her disappearance, at around 10.30 p.m., she heard a child crying, which from the sound would be MADELEINE and that she cried for an hour and fifteen minutes, until her parents arrived, at around 11.57 p.m.
 
This shows that the parents were not persistently worried about their children [and] that they didn't check on them like they afterwards declared they did, rather neglecting their duty to guard those same children, although not in a temerarious, or gross, manner."
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id136.html#adi9


"how would any one of them have disposed of her within such a short timeframe without anyone finding her? Where? When? How?"


In a large dumpster type bin.

Have you found anything to indicate when she was first interviewed? All I can find is an interview months later. Wouldn't she have been an obvious person to interview in the early days?


Offline Wonderfulspam

Re: Statistically...what are the chances that Maddie was abducted..
« Reply #251 on: January 02, 2014, 02:32:30 PM »
That would seem plausible, whoever was responsible. But no body was found, was it? How thorough were the checks into dumpster bins at the time?

I'm not actually sure but I think I remember Anne mentioning the rubbish collection times before.
It could be that rubbish collections happened early hours. Maybe at the time the PJ believed Tannerman had taken her and so were looking for a living child in that direction & wouldn't have reason to search every bin in another direction.
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Offline Wonderfulspam

Re: Statistically...what are the chances that Maddie was abducted..
« Reply #252 on: January 02, 2014, 02:55:58 PM »
Have you found anything to indicate when she was first interviewed? All I can find is an interview months later. Wouldn't she have been an obvious person to interview in the early days?

No I don't know how much contact Mrs Fenn had with the police, but the AG obviously found good reason to trust her.

There is no doubt that mistakes were made by the PJ but is it any wonder when in the early days & beyond  they were being overwhelmed with 'sightings' which have all come to nothing.

'No media' they asked. If this had been obeyed a more organised investigation could have taken place & who knows maybe Maddie would have been home in time for christmas.


Christian Brueckner Fan Club

Offline Carana

Re: Statistically...what are the chances that Maddie was abducted..
« Reply #253 on: January 02, 2014, 02:56:18 PM »
I'm not actually sure but I think I remember Anne mentioning the rubbish collection times before.
It could be that rubbish collections happened early hours. Maybe at the time the PJ believed Tannerman had taken her and so were looking for a living child in that direction & wouldn't have reason to search every bin in another direction.

I have huge respect for those who took time off work or holidays to try find her in the early days. An amazing amount of people who tried to contribute to the search, and I think that they deserve applause, even if individuals wish to remain anonymous - they know who they were.

The fact is that no trace of her was found.


Offline Carana

Re: Statistically...what are the chances that Maddie was abducted..
« Reply #254 on: January 02, 2014, 03:04:04 PM »
No I don't know how much contact Mrs Fenn had with the police, but the AG obviously found good reason to trust her.

There is no doubt that mistakes were made by the PJ but is it any wonder when in the early days & beyond  they were being overwhelmed with 'sightings' which have all come to nothing.

'No media' they asked. If this had been obeyed a more organised investigation could have taken place & who knows maybe Maddie would have been home in time for christmas.

A more organised investigation by whom? Who originally suggested "no media" The GNR or the PJ?

Then what... a provincial force with little experience of such cases?