The Find Madeleine Campaign. Controlled Strategy or Runaway Tiger?

[CPN]

So are you saying that The Social Services were unaware of all the parents doing this in holiday camps and holiday resorts both in The UK and abroad?  Or were they turning a blind eye?  Or perhaps it just wasn't considered to be an offence?

As I have already said, I have no idea, Eleanor - unlike some I am quite prepared to admit if I do not know something.

But the McCanns were not in a hotel. were they?  They were in an apartment with open access to a road.  I really cannot understand this constant reference to "hotels"

[CPN]

Still spinning, nearly seven years later. 8-)(--)

Other parents don't leave bloomin' doors and windows unlocked do they.

If creche staff had left many children alone in unsecured rooms would you be excusing that? Of course you wouldn't.

Thanks, Lyall - you worded it better than me!

[John]

Best post I've seen on here in the month that I've been a member. 

As far as the 50m back garden argument goes....yes lots of country houses have bigger gardens but sitting outside drinking or dining usually doesn't involve a 50m hike to the patio area.

For the sake of clarity, the restaurant was 50m away from the apartment by line of sight but a walking distance of about 71m as depicted by the yellow line on the map below.





This thread gives some insight into what could or could not be seen from the restaurant at night.

www.miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=2635.msg85155#msg85155

[Wonderfulspam]

As I have already said, I have no idea, Eleanor - unlike some I am quite prepared to admit if I do not know something.

But the McCanns were not in a hotel. were they?  They were in an apartment with open access to a road.  I really cannot understand this constant reference to "hotels"

But , but kate had letters from other mums saying, you know, we have done what you have done a hundred times over! She wasn't exagerating.

Kate: 'Well, I have actually come to terms a little bit with... with that, Jenny, I mean, you know... I know the, errm, I know the situation that we were in that night and uh, I've said all along, I didn't feel I was taking a risk. Errm, yeah, I... I do feel desperately sorry I wasn't with Madeleine at that minute when she was taken. Errm, I'd also like to mention I've had so much support from so many people. I've had so many letters and comments sent me.. sent to me from other families, and particularly other mums saying, you know, we have done what you have done a hundred times over, do not blame yourself.'

[CPN]

For the sake of clarity, the restaurant was 50m away from the apartment by line of sight but a walking distance of about 71m as depicted by the yellow line on the map below.





This thread gives some insight into what could or could not be seen from the restaurant at night.

www.miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=2635.15

The fact is, John, that the children were left out of sight and hearing, and that really is all that matters.

However the difference between "as the crow flies" and "walking distance" are relevant when the 50 metres is constantly quoted.  A couple of years ago I had chemotherapy.  In the few days in between session that I felt well enough to go down to our local town for a little bit of shopping, I became very aware a) of how hilly it is around here! - gentle slopes but slopes none the less and b) the idea that "as the crow flies" is relevant is nonsense. Had I been able to fly directly to the relevant bus stop, life would have been much easier.  Instead, an uphill walk, a down hill walk, cross the road, along the road, turn left etc.  As the crow flies was totally irrelevant - as it was in the McCann case.

[Lyall]

Thanks, Lyall - you worded it better than me!

Cheers, CPN

I find their absolute devotion fascinating. And a little bit scary.

[CPN]

But , but kate had letters from other mums saying, you know, we have done what you have done a hundred times over! She wasn't exagerating.

Kate: 'Well, I have actually come to terms a little bit with... with that, Jenny, I mean, you know... I know the, errm, I know the situation that we were in that night and uh, I've said all along, I didn't feel I was taking a risk. Errm, yeah, I... I do feel desperately sorry I wasn't with Madeleine at that minute when she was taken. Errm, I'd also like to mention I've had so much support from so many people. I've had so many letters and comments sent me.. sent to me from other families, and particularly other mums saying, you know, we have done what you have done a hundred times over, do not blame yourself.'

All the more worrying.  And all the more reason for the McCanns to say it was not the right thing to do. 

[Eleanor]

So exactly what were The McCanns supposed to tolerate from The Media Headlines?

"Gerry is not Madeleine's Father."  "Madeleine died from a drug overdose."  "The McCanns are Swingers."
Just to mention a few.  And it went on for months.  Neither would it have stopped if The McCanns had ignored it.

I find this much more scary than any devotion that I have to the rule of law.  It is in fact obscene.

[Lyall]

So exactly what were The McCanns supposed to tolerate from The Media Headlines?

"Gerry is not Madeleine's Father."  "Madeleine died from a drug overdose."  "The McCanns are Swingers."
Just to mention a few.  And it went on for months.  Neither would it have stopped if The McCanns had ignored it.

I find this much more scary than any devotion that I have to the rule of law.  It is in fact obscene.

I agree with you, I wouldn't begin to attempt to defend what the press did Sept 07 onwards. But even then it was almost all front page sensationalist stuff (not too dissimilar to many of the articles they still publish... about other people). There was even then almost no unfavourable editorial or informed critical articles by columnists.

But the front pages of most of the papers were a disgrace I agree.

[Lyall]

You can count on your fingers how many columnists were brave enough to write articles, Eleanor. Even then.

[Benice]

Still spinning, nearly seven years later. 8-)(--)

Other parents don't leave bloomin' doors and windows unlocked do they.
If creche staff had left many children alone in unsecured rooms would you be excusing that? Of course you wouldn't.

Whether it be by accident or design -  of course other parents will have done the same -  and no doubt will do the same again in the future.     Why are we always being asked to believe that all parents in the world except the McCanns are perfect and never ever get anything wrong when it comes to childcare arrangements?    It's a preposterous idea IMO.

[Lyall]

Whether it be by accident or design -  of course other parents will have done the same -  and no doubt will do the same again in the future.     Why are we always being asked to believe that all parents in the world except the McCanns are perfect and never ever get anything wrong when it comes to childcare arrangements?    It's a preposterous idea IMO.

It's an area that will always be discussed because it is behaviour that is completely alien to most people, however much you try to excuse it. It's so alien that many people - myself included - don't think the McCanns or their friends ever did it. And if they didn't then their story is fabricated, for whatever reason.

They knew at the time that leaving the children in an apartment that wasn't secure wouldn't be understood by their own family (never mind the world), which is why they didn't immediately own up to the patio door being unlocked.

It appears they did tell the police the next day but they didn't tell their family did they.

[CPN]

Whether it be by accident or design -  of course other parents will have done the same -  and no doubt will do the same again in the future.     Why are we always being asked to believe that all parents in the world except the McCanns are perfect and never ever get anything wrong when it comes to childcare arrangements?    It's a preposterous idea IMO.

Firstly I object to this constant derogatory calling of those of us who would not leave our children in this way "perfect".  No, I was not a perfect parent - but I can assure you that having had my child, he came first and I would never have left him in a situation where he could have come  into danger of any kind in order to put my own enjoyment first.  Secondly, the fact that other parents have done the same does not make it right - indeed it increases the need to say loud and clear that the needs and the safety of your children come before your needs.

[Mr Gray]

Firstly I object to this constant derogatory calling of those of us who would not leave our children in this way "perfect".  No, I was not a perfect parent - but I can assure you that having had my child, he came first and I would never have left him in a situation where he could have come  into danger of any kind in order to put my own enjoyment first.  Secondly, the fact that other parents have done the same does not make it right - indeed it increases the need to say loud and clear that the needs and the safety of your children come before your needs.

I don't think you have any right to try and impose your views on other parents...social services do...why are they not tackling the hotels that offer baby listening services which contravene their guidelines...perhaps they don't think they are that much of  a problem

[Benice]

Sorry if I "ignored" a posting of yours before, Benice.   I am not on here full time and do not always read everything to catch up when I have been away, it depends on my time available.  I usually answer posts directed to me unless the poster has been rude, then I do not see why I should bother to answer

If there was indeed an abductor I never have and never, ever would justify his / her actions.  But it comes back to the lack of admission that leaving the children alone was wrong and others should not do it - and as I have said many times before also, not because of possible abduction, which its very rare but because of possible dangers in the home (in this case not a familiar home, but a holiday apartment)  Leave the "abductor" out of it - it is still wrong to leave young children alone and unsupervised; and yet Kate said in the introduction to the Crime Watch programme that they had done "nothing wrong".  So no, I do not want sack cloth and ashes; I personally would like a consistent acknowledgement that they DID do some thing wrong in leaving the children alone and others should not repeat it - not for reason of possible abduction either, but for the myriad of other reasons which have led to the government and NSPCC guideline on this matter.

Thank you for your reply.

I think you will find that any parents who have signed up a baby listening service in the past - (which always entails leaving sleeping children alone for periods of time -  no matter who  is doing the checking) would also say they did not think they were doing anything  wrong when they made that decision.   Just like the McCanns they thought it was OK at the time - otherwise they wouldn't have done it.

Why would you think it would be a good idea for the McCanns to insult the intelligence of other parents by advising them not to repeat what they did?      Any parent who knew what happened to Madeleine would surely be able to work that out for themselves PDQ.     

Also I can just imagine the torrent of abuse that would be hurled at them if they did what you think they should do  ,  e.g. ''How dare those wicked McCanns tell me how to look after my kids'' .....or..... ''I've never left my kids ever - they're the ones who need lecturing not me.''......  or  ...   'Who the hell do they think they are - they're the ones who left their kids not us''...... and so on and so forth.       And that IMO would be the one and only very unproductive outcome and would serve no useful purpose at all to your 'cause'.

I'm sure there are plenty of parents who - (not because they have read any NCPCC guidelines, but purely because of what happened to Madeleine ) will have vowed never to leave their children in the same way when on holiday, but who might have done, if this dreadful tragedy had not occurred.    Surely from your POV - that is a step in the right direction for the future safety of children - without having to continually  bash the parents whose unwitting actions brought about that change of attitude - but who will also be suffering for the rest of their lives because of it.