The Find Madeleine Campaign. Controlled Strategy or Runaway Tiger?

[Redblossom]

I don't think you have any right to try and impose your views on other parents...social services do...why are they not tackling the hotels that offer baby listening services which contravene their guidelines...perhaps they don't think they are that much of  a problem

Hotel listening services are marginally better than no listening service....the mccans had no baby monitor, nor a listening in capability via the phone..... hotel security is better overall than unlocked doors and windows (in a private flat on the corner of a rosd accessible to any tom dick and harry) and security who can get in and out of hotel rooms,  CPN is correct, that if anything had happened they wouldnt have had a clue being out of ear and eyeshot..... they wouldnt even had had a clue with their checks which GM said were only ever auditory and never visual! Still, best to stop flogging this dead donkey hey? And pretend what they did was absolutely fine...what with leaving doors open and not knowing if they locked the front door to stop anyone getting in and more importantly out....

[Benice]

Firstly I object to this constant derogatory calling of those of us who would not leave our children in this way "perfect".  No, I was not a perfect parent - but I can assure you that having had my child, he came first and I would never have left him in a situation where he could have come  into danger of any kind in order to put my own enjoyment first.  Secondly, the fact that other parents have done the same does not make it right - indeed it increases the need to say loud and clear that the needs and the safety of your children come before your needs.

Im sure all those parents of children you see in A&E depts with broken limbs etc, and those parents whose children have drowned in baths and garden pools also always put their children first in their own minds.    And I would agree with them.     But human error is trait which we can all be guilty of -  not just the McCanns, which is the myth being constantly perpetuated IMO.   

[Redblossom]

Whether it be by accident or design -  of course other parents will have done the same -  and no doubt will do the same again in the future.     Why are we always being asked to believe that all parents in the world except the McCanns are perfect and never ever get anything wrong when it comes to childcare arrangements?    It's a preposterous idea IMO.

Missed this. What is the design in deliberately leaving windows or doors unlocked when you leave three toddlers on their own? In an insecured house and go out? BBL to see......what I am missing here.....



 >@@(*&)

[Mr Gray]

Hotel listening services are marginally better than no listening service....the mccans had no baby monitor, nor a listening in capability via the phone..... hotel security is better overall than unlocked doors and windows (in a private flat on the corner of a rosd accessible to any tom dick and harry) and security who can get in and out of hotel rooms,  CPN is correct, that if anything had happened they wouldnt have had a clue being out of ear and eyeshot..... they wouldnt even had had a clue with their checks which GM said were only ever auditory and never visual! Still, best to stop flogging this dead donkey hey? And pretend what they did was absolutely fine...what with leaving doors open and not knowing if they locked the front door to stop anyone getting in and more importantly out....

 but hotel listening services break the guidelines that CPN has told us must be enforced...

[CPN]

I don't think you have any right to try and impose your views on other parents...social services do...why are they not tackling the hotels that offer baby listening services which contravene their guidelines...perhaps they don't think they are that much of  a problem

This is my last reply to you, davel because you are always undermining and rude.  If you wish to come back at me to have the last word as you usually do, that is fine - your prerogative.

I have already said I do not know about the attitude of Social Services to any hotel using a listening service - so I cannot comment further, and you are wasting your time with your fixation on hotels and listening services.  In any case, as already said tonight, the McCanns were NOT staying in a hotel so it is irrelevant.

So I do not have any right to try and impose my views on other parents.  As far as I am concerned I have every right to try and protect children from all forms of abuse including neglect; if that includes commenting on different aspects of child rearing, so be it.  Do you think people just walk into being a Children's Social Worker (or a Child Care Officer, as it was called when I qualified)   It entailed a degree, taken when university was attended by 4% of the population in the UK, not 44%, then a post graduate Diploma in Social Work, specialising in Child Care - which involved many aspects, including, of course, child development.  (My teaching Diploma was taken much later)   I have had to advise parents on many, many aspects of child rearing in order to protect the children, and will continue to advise if I wish - in order to protect children from negligent parents.  If they don't like it - fine.  But some do and appreciate it.  I am thinking in particular of a cousin of my son who has said time and again that she is so grateful for the discussions we have had on the up-bringing of her sons and the advise I gave, and how much easier it has been since she took my advice. 

Now, I will say no more because the next thing I shall be accused of is showing off.  But the care for and concern for children remains at the root of my concern about this case and others similar

Enjoy your reply to this; and don't expect another reply because you will not get one

[Mr Gray]

This is my last reply to you, davel because you are always undermining and rude.  If you wish to come back at me to have the last word as you usually do, that is fine - your prerogative.

I have already said I do not know about the attitude of Social Services to any hotel using a listening service - so I cannot comment further, and you are wasting your time with your fixation on hotels and listening services.  In any case, as already said tonight, the McCanns were NOT staying in a hotel so it is irrelevant.

So I do not have any right to try and impose my views on other parents.  As far as I am concerned I have every right to try and protect children from all forms of abuse including neglect; if that includes commenting on different aspects of child rearing, so be it.  Do you think people just walk into being a Children's Social Worker (or a Child Care Officer, as it was called when I qualified)   It entailed a degree, taken when university was attended by 4% of the population in the UK, not 44%, then a post graduate Diploma in Social Work, specialising in Child Care - which involved many aspects, including, of course, child development.  (My teaching Diploma was taken much later)   I have had to advise parents on many, many aspects of child rearing in order to protect the children, and will continue to advise if I wish - in order to protect children from negligent parents.  If they don't like it - fine.  But some do and appreciate it.  I am thinking in particular of a cousin of my son who has said time and again that she is so grateful for the discussions we have had on the up-bringing of her sons and the advise I gave, and how much easier it has been since she took my advice. 

Now, I will say no more because the next thing I shall be accused of is showing off.  But the care for and concern for children remains at the root of my concern about this case and others similar

Enjoy your reply to this; and don't expect another reply because you will not get one

Strange as it may seem to you I find you very rude and will be more than happy for you not to reply to my posts. I on the other hand will continue to reply to any post I wish to.

You continually criticise the listening service carried out by the  McCanns and claim that this would definitely lead to action by social services...I think you are talking rubbish...just my opinion...as social services are taking no action against hotels that by your definition are continually breaking their guidelines. You and people like you are heaping more misery on the mcCanns and I think that is disgraceful. As long as you continue to criticise the McCanns I will continue to defend them...simple.

the fact that you find me rude is of no consequence...the fact that you support posters who are rude and act disgracefully tells us all we need to know about you

[Mr Gray]

Thank you for your reply.

I think you will find that any parents who have signed up a baby listening service in the past - (which always entails leaving sleeping children alone for periods of time -  no matter who  is doing the checking) would also say they did not think they were doing anything  wrong when they made that decision.   Just like the McCanns they thought it was OK at the time - otherwise they wouldn't have done it.

Why would you think it would be a good idea for the McCanns to insult the intelligence of other parents by advising them not to repeat what they did?      Any parent who knew what happened to Madeleine would surely be able to work that out for themselves PDQ. 


   

Also I can just imagine the torrent of abuse that would be hurled at them if they did what you think they should do  ,  e.g. ''How dare those wicked McCanns tell me how to look after my kids'' .....or..... ''I've never left my kids ever - they're the ones who need lecturing not me.''......  or  ...   'Who the hell do they think they are - they're the ones who left their kids not us''...... and so on and so forth.       And that IMO would be the one and only very unproductive outcome and would serve no useful purpose at all to your 'cause'.

I'm sure there are plenty of parents who - (not because they have read any NCPCC guidelines, but purely because of what happened to Madeleine ) will have vowed never to leave their children in the same way when on holiday, but who might have done, if this dreadful tragedy had not occurred.    Surely from your POV - that is a step in the right direction for the future safety of children - without having to continually  bash the parents whose unwitting actions brought about that change of attitude - but who will also be suffering for the rest of their lives because of it.

Excellent post Benice...my sentiments exactly

[CPN]

Thank you for your reply.

I think you will find that any parents who have signed up a baby listening service in the past - (which always entails leaving sleeping children alone for periods of time -  no matter who  is doing the checking) would also say they did not think they were doing anything  wrong when they made that decision.   Just like the McCanns they thought it was OK at the time - otherwise they wouldn't have done it.

Why would you think it would be a good idea for the McCanns to insult the intelligence of other parents by advising them not to repeat what they did?      Any parent who knew what happened to Madeleine would surely be able to work that out for themselves PDQ.     

Also I can just imagine the torrent of abuse that would be hurled at them if they did what you think they should do  ,  e.g. ''How dare those wicked McCanns tell me how to look after my kids'' .....or..... ''I've never left my kids ever - they're the ones who need lecturing not me.''......  or  ...   'Who the hell do they think they are - they're the ones who left their kids not us''...... and so on and so forth.       And that IMO would be the one and only very unproductive outcome and would serve no useful purpose at all to your 'cause'.

I'm sure there are plenty of parents who - (not because they have read any NCPCC guidelines, but purely because of what happened to Madeleine ) will have vowed never to leave their children in the same way when on holiday, but who might have done, if this dreadful tragedy had not occurred.    Surely from your POV - that is a step in the right direction for the future safety of children - without having to continually  bash the parents whose unwitting actions brought about that change of attitude - but who will also be suffering for the rest of their lives because of it.

Benice - I really do not have time to answer all your points.  But the reason why I think the McCanns should acknowledge fault is because their insistence that they did nothing wrong contradicts any idea that the same thing should not be done by others and is therefore dangerous.  There needs to be a consistent approach to this. To say so would not insult the intelligence of other parents (IMO), it could be worded that they realise they were wrong and can only hope others do not do the same.   But to deny their role in this gives totally the wrong message.

 As to the torrent of abuse they might receive - I can assure you it would not be worse that the abuse I have received, both while working and since on forums.   But more important is the safety of children and if you have to receive abuse to ensure that- so be it!

Sorry about the delay in replying! - my son arrived back from New Years Eve away in the middle of this post and we (naturally!) got talking

[Mr Gray]

Hotel listening services are marginally better than no listening service....the mccans had no baby monitor, nor a listening in capability via the phone..... hotel security is better overall than unlocked doors and windows (in a private flat on the corner of a rosd accessible to any tom dick and harry) and security who can get in and out of hotel rooms,  CPN is correct, that if anything had happened they wouldnt have had a clue being out of ear and eyeshot..... they wouldnt even had had a clue with their checks which GM said were only ever auditory and never visual! Still, best to stop flogging this dead donkey hey? And pretend what they did was absolutely fine...what with leaving doors open and not knowing if they locked the front door to stop anyone getting in and more importantly out....

I agree that hotel services are better...but according to cpn are in breach of guidelines....why are  they not condemned by social services....because they are merely guidelines not laws

[CPN]

Im sure all those parents of children you see in A&E depts with broken limbs etc, and those parents whose children have drowned in baths and garden pools also always put their children first in their own minds.    And I would agree with them.     But human error is trait which we can all be guilty of -  not just the McCanns, which is the myth being constantly perpetuated IMO.

Agreed (re accidents etc)   I have sat beside parents while they looked at their damaged child in the hospital bed saying "but I only..."  But they sure learnt from whatever it was that happened.  The McCanns had the advantage of their training as doctors, let alone knowing that two of the children had cried the night before; they were not as ignorant as many of the parents I had to work with

[Mr Gray]

of course far,far more children are seriously hurt when they are in the house with parents present than when they are left alone. Therefore according to red's school of statistics its safer if the children are left on their own.

[John]

of course far,far more children are seriously hurt when they are in the house with parents present than when they are left alone. Therefore according to red's school of statistics its safer if the children are left on their own.

That's the whole point isn't it.  Far fewer accidents have occurred when children have been left on their own because far fewer children are actually left on their own.  Most accidents occur when the parents are either present or nearby.  Is that what you are attempting to articulate Dave?

The bottom line is children should never be left on their own whether it is a villa in Rothley or an apartment in Praia da Luz.

[colombosstogey]

This point about child listening services etc is so tiresome.

The Ocean Club did not OFFER THIS SERVICE as it was felt they could not guarantee child safety this way.

The Ocean Club offered a night CRECHE which ALL parents using the day creche could use.

The Ocean Club also offered babysitting services.

The Apartments at PDL were privately OWNED. It would be like myself winning the lottery and thinking right I am going to buy a flat and use it in the summer months and enjoy the facilities of the club located close by. Which owners could do. Bit like in towns where there are Butlins, people living in the towns can use the facilities for a small fee.

So I have an apartment in PDL, and I have a flat in uk.

IF I had children and was living in my flat in the UK, and decided to pop out to my local pub which was located about 70 metres away and my children were snatched or in a fire, I would have been arrested and charged.

So pray what is the difference? Or am I totally missing the plot here...

The flat in PDL 5A was a PRIVATELY OWNED flat set on the edge of a club, and the owners had included this flat with Warner facilities. I believe Warner is the agent and they run the facilities and offer holiday packages with accommodation bit like Hoseasons and haven.

Warner offer a child friendly facility, with day clubs for the kids so the parents can get a break, and even creche facilities close to the Tapas bar so the children can chill out watching DVDS whilst their parents enjoy a drink and a meal. Its PERFECT for parents.

I just wonder BEFORE the McCanns and their troop arrived HOW MANY people actually left their children in the flats and trooped off to one of the Warners restaurants.

I believe on night the McCanns and friends went to the Millenuium which is quite a long walk away could be a myth but it was stated this was the night a child was heard crying........

Anyway it would be very interesting how many people did leave their children prior...I bet you NO ONE DID.

Why the hell would you? You have every opportunity to use good quality creche facilities, you can enjoy a meal and drink and pick the kids up almost right by your side at 11pm and still enjoy yourself, without the constant walking and checking. As to using baby monitors no way. These are so not meant for this type of distance.

The whole thing makes no sense to me. Why the hell would you go on holiday to a child friendly park, and not use the facilities offered so that you too can have some peace and quiet.

The McCanns KNEW there was no child listening services Mrs McCann said that herself, and anyway you would soon find that out if you just googled...........

The FLAT was a FLAT not a hotel room contained inside an area with receptionists and security, the FLAT was a FLAT not contained in an area with security guards on the front gates..........

The FLAT was a FLAT like many other flats in PDL open and vulnerable to anyone walking about who felt like stealing or burglarising your property.

Jeez you just would not leave children on their own no way no how, and if you did SHAME ON YOU and IF YOU DID IN THE UK, you would have had the blooming plod knocking on your door and been arrested for going out drinking and eating and leaving your kids on their own.

Enough already.....

[stephen25000]

This point about child listening services etc is so tiresome.

The Ocean Club did not OFFER THIS SERVICE as it was felt they could not guarantee child safety this way.

The Ocean Club offered a night CRECHE which ALL parents using the day creche could use.

The Ocean Club also offered babysitting services.

The Apartments at PDL were privately OWNED. It would be like myself winning the lottery and thinking right I am going to buy a flat and use it in the summer months and enjoy the facilities of the club located close by. Which owners could do. Bit like in towns where there are Butlins, people living in the towns can use the facilities for a small fee.

So I have an apartment in PDL, and I have a flat in uk.

IF I had children and was living in my flat in the UK, and decided to pop out to my local pub which was located about 70 metres away and my children were snatched or in a fire, I would have been arrested and charged.

So pray what is the difference? Or am I totally missing the plot here...

The flat in PDL 5A was a PRIVATELY OWNED flat set on the edge of a club, and the owners had included this flat with Warner facilities. I believe Warner is the agent and they run the facilities and offer holiday packages with accommodation bit like Hoseasons and haven.

Warner offer a child friendly facility, with day clubs for the kids so the parents can get a break, and even creche facilities close to the Tapas bar so the children can chill out watching DVDS whilst their parents enjoy a drink and a meal. Its PERFECT for parents.

I just wonder BEFORE the McCanns and their troop arrived HOW MANY people actually left their children in the flats and trooped off to one of the Warners restaurants.

I believe on night the McCanns and friends went to the Millenuium which is quite a long walk away could be a myth but it was stated this was the night a child was heard crying........

Anyway it would be very interesting how many people did leave their children prior...I bet you NO ONE DID.

Why the hell would you? You have every opportunity to use good quality creche facilities, you can enjoy a meal and drink and pick the kids up almost right by your side at 11pm and still enjoy yourself, without the constant walking and checking. As to using baby monitors no way. These are so not meant for this type of distance.

The whole thing makes no sense to me. Why the hell would you go on holiday to a child friendly park, and not use the facilities offered so that you too can have some peace and quiet.

The McCanns KNEW there was no child listening services Mrs McCann said that herself, and anyway you would soon find that out if you just googled...........

The FLAT was a FLAT not a hotel room contained inside an area with receptionists and security, the FLAT was a FLAT not contained in an area with security guards on the front gates..........

The FLAT was a FLAT like many other flats in PDL open and vulnerable to anyone walking about who felt like stealing or burglarising your property.

Jeez you just would not leave children on their own no way no how, and if you did SHAME ON YOU and IF YOU DID IN THE UK, you would have had the blooming plod knocking on your door and been arrested for going out drinking and eating and leaving your kids on their own.

Enough already.....

Excellent post.


 

[Mr Gray]

This point about child listening services etc is so tiresome.

The Ocean Club did not OFFER THIS SERVICE as it was felt they could not guarantee child safety this way.

The Ocean Club offered a night CRECHE which ALL parents using the day creche could use.

The Ocean Club also offered babysitting services.

The Apartments at PDL were privately OWNED. It would be like myself winning the lottery and thinking right I am going to buy a flat and use it in the summer months and enjoy the facilities of the club located close by. Which owners could do. Bit like in towns where there are Butlins, people living in the towns can use the facilities for a small fee.

So I have an apartment in PDL, and I have a flat in uk.

IF I had children and was living in my flat in the UK, and decided to pop out to my local pub which was located about 70 metres away and my children were snatched or in a fire, I would have been arrested and charged.

So pray what is the difference? Or am I totally missing the plot here...

The flat in PDL 5A was a PRIVATELY OWNED flat set on the edge of a club, and the owners had included this flat with Warner facilities. I believe Warner is the agent and they run the facilities and offer holiday packages with accommodation bit like Hoseasons and haven.

Warner offer a child friendly facility, with day clubs for the kids so the parents can get a break, and even creche facilities close to the Tapas bar so the children can chill out watching DVDS whilst their parents enjoy a drink and a meal. Its PERFECT for parents.

I just wonder BEFORE the McCanns and their troop arrived HOW MANY people actually left their children in the flats and trooped off to one of the Warners restaurants.

I believe on night the McCanns and friends went to the Millenuium which is quite a long walk away could be a myth but it was stated this was the night a child was heard crying........

Anyway it would be very interesting how many people did leave their children prior...I bet you NO ONE DID.

Why the hell would you? You have every opportunity to use good quality creche facilities, you can enjoy a meal and drink and pick the kids up almost right by your side at 11pm and still enjoy yourself, without the constant walking and checking. As to using baby monitors no way. These are so not meant for this type of distance.

The whole thing makes no sense to me. Why the hell would you go on holiday to a child friendly park, and not use the facilities offered so that you too can have some peace and quiet.

The McCanns KNEW there was no child listening services Mrs McCann said that herself, and anyway you would soon find that out if you just googled...........

The FLAT was a FLAT not a hotel room contained inside an area with receptionists and security, the FLAT was a FLAT not contained in an area with security guards on the front gates..........

The FLAT was a FLAT like many other flats in PDL open and vulnerable to anyone walking about who felt like stealing or burglarising your property.

Jeez you just would not leave children on their own no way no how, and if you did SHAME ON YOU and IF YOU DID IN THE UK, you would have had the blooming plod knocking on your door and been arrested for going out drinking and eating and leaving your kids on their own.

Enough already.....

 Its tiresome...and I agree ..because posters keep attacking the McCanns re the childcare arrangements. yOu keep attacking...as you are doing now ...and I will keep defending.

You seem to accept that hotel listening services are just acceptable...yet there is a risk..it seems you accept that risk...that's what the McCanns did...life is all about risks.

I notice no one has criticised Schumacher for skiing off piste. What a stupid thing to do some might say..its his own fault..but no he gets sympathy,and quite rightly too