Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.

[Lace]

Rachel Oldfield stayed in on Wed 2nd and heard no crying next door but Kate claimed at the table on the night her daughter disappeared that Madeleine said why didn't you come when me and Sean were crying last night? If that happened god knows how Rachel didn't hear it i.e. her bedroom being next door to the kids room.

"I was next door in the apartment but I mean I didn’t hear any, well you know, I didn’t hear anything." (RO)

Madeleine crying for her daddy doesn't mean he's there but Kate using her mobile many times before Pamela 'plummy voice' Fenn reported the crying to have commenced at 10:30 is interesting  >@@(*&)

"At around 8.45pm on Tuesday 1st May 2007, Miss Nejoua Chekeya, the Ocean Clubs busty Aerobics Instructor, held a 'Quiz Night' and was later invited, allegedly by Gerald McCann, to join his table which she did sometime between 9.30pm and 9.50pm. She did not say how long she had remained with them, but she is not the sort of woman men would wish see to leave too quickly. Miss Chekeya stated that one dinner setting was unused and that she could not remember seeing Kate McCann."

"Kate McCanns mobile was next activated six times, in rapid fire, between 22.16 and 22.27, after she had returned to Apartment 5A after dinner. The antenna traffic proves that these calls were not made to any of the 'Tapas 9'."

Kate McCann did say that Mrs. Fenn couldn't have heard Madeleine crying on Tuesday night because she was there.

Kate McCann also said that Amelie was crying around about 12 o'clock and that Madeleine came in to say that she was crying.     I think it was that night Madeleine had been talking about when she said 'why didn't you come when we were crying'    Amelie was crying woke Madeleine and Sean and they were crying for someone to come in to see to Amelie.

[pathfinder73]

Kate McCann did say that Mrs. Fenn couldn't have heard Madeleine crying on Tuesday night because she was there.

Kate McCann also said that Amelie was crying around about 12 o'clock and that Madeleine came in to say that she was crying.     I think it was that night Madeleine had been talking about when she said 'why didn't you come when we were crying'    Amelie was crying woke Madeleine and Sean and they were crying for someone to come in to see to Amelie.

The cleaner who came in on WED said there was a cot in the parent's bedroom. Another anomaly  >@@(*&)

[Silkywhiskers]

It has been pointed out that a three year old would NEVER say -

"why didn't you come when we cried?"

A three year old would say "why didn't you come when I cried?"

Three year olds are not concerned with the crying of anyone else but themselves, so this statement is thought to be inaccurate.

Indeed, I know seven and eight year olds who would've said "I" not "we". 

Three year olds are only just becoming aware of "us" and "we", little egoists they are,  but they actually use "me" or "I".

[John]

I have stated what was recorded in Mrs Fenn's statement as recorded in the PJ files which are published online.

IMO there are two contradictions within that statement.

It should also be noted that the statement records ~
On the 3rd May she received a visit from her niece Carole during the morning, who said that when she was on her terrace she saw a male individual looking into the McCanns apartment, situation which has been told to the police, her family member even made a photo fit"
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PAMELA_FENN.htm

Was that actually the date when her niece visited?

If you read further from the statement made in Britain after a bit of forensic questioning ~ Mrs Tranmer realised she was mistaken in the date given and recorded by Mrs Fenn in her statement.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CAROL_TRANMER.htm

I can't see anything wrong with Mrs Fenn's statement, in fact I find it somewhat lucid.

She clearly identifies a child crying on the Tuesday night, going out to her friend Edna Glyn on the Wednesday and of meeting with the Tranmers on Thursday morning.  Carole Tranmer for her part confirms the visit on the Thursday, of going for a meal to Lagos thereafter returning to 5g where she saw a man exit from the last gate belonging to the ground floor apartments into the private alley which ran along the bottom of the gardens.  She states that they left Mrs Fenn around 6.30pm.

It should be noted that the McCann's apartment (5a) did not exit onto the private alley but directly onto the public road.  Thus the man Mrs Tranmer saw did not exit from the McCann's apartment even though she initially thought he had done so.

[Brietta]

I can't see anything wrong with Mrs Fenn's statement, in fact I find it somewhat lucid.

She clearly identifies a child crying on the Tuesday night, going out to her friend Edna Glyn on the Wednesday and of meeting with the Tranmers on Thursday morning.  Carole Tranmer for her part confirms the visit on the Thursday, of going for a meal to Lagos thereafter returning to 5g where she saw a man exit from the last gate belonging to the ground floor apartments into the private alley which ran along the bottom of the gardens.  She states that they left Mrs Fenn around 6.30pm.

It should be noted that the McCann's apartment (5a) did not exit onto the private alley but directly onto the public road.  Thus the man Mrs Tranmer saw did not exit from the McCann's apartment even though she initially thought he had done so.

I’m not implying that Mrs Fenn was anything other than lucid, and I hope you don’t think that. 

From the little I have read about her she seems to have been a feisty lady in full possession of her mental faculties although suffering some frailty.   
This caused her son some concern about the unwarranted media spotlight she found herself under. 

It is not what Mrs Fenn said when interviewed, it is the way it has been recorded in the files posted on the internet. 

The contradiction lies in her saying nothing unusual had occurred then further on the behaviour of the man seen by her neice being so furtive it was reported to the police.

I do not think scribing her statement from English to Portuguese then from Portuguese back to English has helped. 

[John]

I’m not implying that Mrs Fenn was anything other than lucid, and I hope you don’t think that. 

From the little I have read about her she seems to have been a feisty lady in full possession of her mental faculties although suffering some frailty.   
This caused her son some concern about the unwarranted media spotlight she found herself under. 

It is not what Mrs Fenn said when interviewed, it is the way it has been recorded in the files posted on the internet. 

The contradiction lies in her saying nothing unusual had occurred then further on the behaviour of the man seen by her neice being so furtive it was reported to the police.

I do not think scribing her statement from English to Portuguese then from Portuguese back to English has helped.

Sorry Brietta, I think you probably misunderstood my comment.  I was referring to the statement being lucid, not Mrs Fenn.

My interpretation of her comment about nothing out of the ordinary happening is that she meant from her own experience that day.  It was her niece Carole who saw the man leaving by the garden gate but she appears not to have made any issue about it at the time, only later when she found out about the disappearance did she think it significant.  Remember too that Carole thought the man left from 5a but this was not the case.

[Lace]

It has been pointed out that a three year old would NEVER say -

"why didn't you come when we cried?"

A three year old would say "why didn't you come when I cried?"

Three year olds are not concerned with the crying of anyone else but themselves, so this statement is thought to be inaccurate.

Indeed, I know seven and eight year olds who would've said "I" not "we". 

Three year olds are only just becoming aware of "us" and "we", little egoists they are,  but they actually use "me" or "I".

Madeleine was days short of being four.

I can imagine Madeleine saying 'why didn't you come when me and Sean cried'     To say that Madeleine wouldn't have said that is ridiculous.

How many times do you hear a child of four saying 'me and so and so are going to play dolls?'

[Brietta]

Sorry Brietta, I think you probably misunderstood my comment.  I was referring to the statement being lucid, not Mrs Fenn.

My interpretation of her comment about nothing out of the ordinary happening is that she meant from her own experience that day.  It was her niece Carole who saw the man leaving by the garden gate but she appears not to have made any issue about it at the time, only later when she found out about the disappearance did she think it significant.  Remember too that Carole thought the man left from 5a but this was not the case.

I've read it again John and see what you are getting at ... but I still believe Mrs Fenn did not say it was Madeleine she heard whatever is in the file.

I remember seeing a TV item at the time where she refuted saying so [ possibly ITN news], only after the case had been archived I think in accordance with Portuguese secrecy laws.
I have a firm recollection of her son's concern about the effect it was all having on his mum's health and wellbeing, so I think she 'went public' in an effort to put the seal on it and stop intrusive [to her] speculation.

At one time the video clip could be found on the net, but alas no longer.  Which is a pity because modern analysis would have determined once and for all what she actually said.

[John]

I've read it again John and see what you are getting at ... but I still believe Mrs Fenn did not say it was Madeleine she heard whatever is in the file.

I remember seeing a TV item at the time where she refuted saying so [ possibly ITN news], only after the case had been archived I think in accordance with Portuguese secrecy laws.
I have a firm recollection of her son's concern about the effect it was all having on his mum's health and wellbeing, so I think she 'went public' in an effort to put the seal on it and stop intrusive [to her] speculation.

At one time the video clip could be found on the net, but alas no longer.  Which is a pity because modern analysis would have determined once and for all what she actually said.

I think she was warned not to say too much for obvious reasons. We can be sure the police statements are more or less an accurate account of events.

[Angelo222]

I think she was warned not to say too much for obvious reasons. We can be sure the police statements are more or less an accurate account of events.

Pamela Fenn didn't have to state it was Madeleine who cried on the Tuesday night for over an hour.  Madeleine allegedly told her mother on the morning of the day she disappeared that she had cried and called for daddy. Question is did it happen on two consecutive nights and did someone prowling about hear it to and took it as an invitation??

The crying for well over an hour is proof that the claimed half hour checks were a fabrication after the fact.

[misty]

Mrs Fenn's statement was not taken until 2nd Aug 2007, by Joao Carlos (he of the Smith's statement)
Doesn't the timing of that strike odd......just as the dogs are going in.......and not right after Madeleine went missing?
The interpreter was Uvue van Loock (very English name). Sadly for Mrs Fenn, her phone number & passport details, etc were not even blanked out of the files released to the public.

[Victoria]

Mrs Fenn's statement was not taken until 2nd Aug 2007, by Joao Carlos (he of the Smith's statement)
Doesn't the timing of that strike odd......just as the dogs are going in.......and not right after Madeleine went missing?
The interpreter was Uvue van Loock (very English name). Sadly for Mrs Fenn, her phone number & passport details, etc were not even blanked out of the files released to the public.

Seems that each and every part of the original investigation was bungled in one way or another.

[John]

Mrs Fenn's statement was not taken until 2nd Aug 2007, by Joao Carlos (he of the Smith's statement)
Doesn't the timing of that strike odd......just as the dogs are going in.......and not right after Madeleine went missing?
The interpreter was Uvue van Loock (very English name). Sadly for Mrs Fenn, her phone number & passport details, etc were not even blanked out of the files released to the public.

And yet her niece was interviewed and a statement taken on 8 May 2007, just 4 days after Madeleine disappeared.  A statement which was never released to the public.

[Anna]

Mrs Fenn saying it is rubbish

Last night the McCanns got a boost when the police case appeared to be undermined by a pensioner who is potentially a key witness.
Pamela Fenn, 81, lives above the apartment where Madeleine disappeared and is reported to have told police she heard Madeleine screaming below.
But yesterday she broke her silence to say it was "absolute rubbish" she had made any such claims to police. Mrs Fenn said: "I didn't even know that family was in t

At 1:18

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[Victoria]

And yet her niece was interviewed and a statement taken on 8 May 2007, just 4 days after Madeleine disappeared.  A statement which was never released to the public.

Not released or not translated?