A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?

[Brietta]

I think KM honestly but mistakenly deduced from the open window that it was abduction.
Shortly after that, the tests by 2 people on that shutter (and by 1 person on another shutter) were because those people initially did not believe the shutter could be opened from outside.
IMO all the searches up to GNR arrival were, without exception, completely genuine.
I think the assumption that the timewindow for exit from apartment has to be something approximately like 21:00-22:00 (2007 PJ) or 21:30-22:00 (2013 SY) is illogical.

I do not believe Dr McCann was mistaken when she thought Madeleine had been abducted, pegasus, and like you I believe her account is an honest one.

In my opinion the opening of the window and raising the shutter was for a reason and we have and will speculate about what that was till the cows come home. 

However as far as the person\s who opened the window was concerned it has had a spectacular result possibly not anticipated as the real purpose; it has served directly to be used not as confirmation of stranger intrusion, but as an accusation of being a ‘cover up’ device by parents who were unfortunate enough not to meet the Portuguese stereotype of parents whose child has been abducted – whatever that may be.

If Madeleine McCann’s parents had hatched a plot against her person … I think we can be rest assured it would never have been any of the stupid theories propounded … and that includes opening the window and shutter in an attempt to delude the police.

[sadie]

Have you never considered that people who criticise your wild assertions may be actually concerned about your state of mind?

 *&*%£

[pathfinder73]

I do not believe Dr McCann was mistaken when she thought Madeleine had been abducted, pegasus, and like you I believe her account is an honest one.

In my opinion the opening of the window and raising the shutter was for a reason and we have and will speculate about what that was till the cows come home. 

However as far as the person\s who opened the window was concerned it has had a spectacular result possibly not anticipated as the real purpose; it has served directly to be used not as confirmation of stranger intrusion, but as an accusation of being a ‘cover up’ device by parents who were unfortunate enough not to meet the Portuguese stereotype of parents whose child has been abducted – whatever that may be.

If Madeleine McCann’s parents had hatched a plot against her person … I think we can be rest assured it would never have been any of the stupid theories propounded … and that includes opening the window and shutter in an attempt to delude the police.

The open window confirms they knew it was abduction. An unlocked door doesn't explain it - Madeleine could have left. That option is gone with the open window/shutters. That proves she was abducted. Well it doesn't  actually

[pathfinder73]

I think KM honestly but mistakenly deduced from the open window that it was abduction.
Shortly after that, the tests by 2 people on that shutter (and by 1 person on another shutter) were because those people initially did not believe the shutter could be opened from outside.
IMO all the searches up to GNR arrival were, without exception, completely genuine.
I think the assumption that the timewindow for exit from apartment has to be something approximately like 21:00-22:00 (2007 PJ) or 21:30-22:00 (2013 SY) is illogical.

Means, motive and opportunity. Who had it?

I don't believe this but I could produce a theory that Tanner was involved. She didn't pass Gerry/Jez but was giving herself an alibi. She went into 5A and moved the door. She was the only one missing from the table when the alarm was raised. She carried Madeleine away from 5A. That theory explains means and opportunity but it falls short and it doesn't  explain motive or Smithman, dog alerts etc. But it explains the door moves and open window. So who else had the means and opportunity? Jez  walking the streets (wouldn't he know if there were others or cars about! - well he spotted Tanner hanging outside) and another who made his first visual check of the week. What's the motive for abducting Madeleine? Money, revenge or covering up a crime?

The primary motive for the child abduction killer in the cases studied was sexual assault.

In 76 percent of the missing children homicide cases studied, the child was dead within three hours of the abduction and in 88.5 percent of the cases the child was dead within 24 hours.

Key recommendations to protect children:

Be certain that your children are supervised – even if they are in their own front yard or neighborhood street.   Approximately one-third of the abductions studied took occurred within one-half block of the victim’s home.

If your child is ever missing, CALL POLICE IMMEDIATELY.   An immediate response to a missing or abducted child may be the difference between life and death.

http://www.atg.wa.gov/childabductionresearch.aspx#.VCV9c_ldWa8

Tanner even said she carried Madeleine away

NicolaMG 5 years ago
 
they are all freaks

[pegasus]

I do not believe Dr McCann was mistaken when she thought Madeleine had been abducted, pegasus, and like you I believe her account is an honest one.

In my opinion the opening of the window and raising the shutter was for a reason and we have and will speculate about what that was till the cows come home. 

However as far as the person\s who opened the window was concerned it has had a spectacular result possibly not anticipated as the real purpose; it has served directly to be used not as confirmation of stranger intrusion, but as an accusation of being a ‘cover up’ device by parents who were unfortunate enough not to meet the Portuguese stereotype of parents whose child has been abducted – whatever that may be.

If Madeleine McCann’s parents had hatched a plot against her person … I think we can be rest assured it would never have been any of the stupid theories propounded … and that includes opening the window and shutter in an attempt to delude the police.

Yes agreed that KM's account is truthful, and agreed that the scene in that child bedroom was not staged in any way, it was exactly how she found it, and no-one else had staged it either, it was the genuine crime scene.
However I think abduction is far from the only possible explanation.

[Brietta]

Yes agreed that KM's account is truthful, and agreed that the scene in that child bedroom was not staged in any way, it was exactly how she found it, and no-one else had staged it either, it was the genuine crime scene.
However I think abduction is far from the only possible explanation.

I'm not sure I follow your reasoning, p, there is no evidence to substantiate other theories put forward; but there are plenty of witness statements suggesting 5a was under surveillance which imo were not sufficiently investigated to dismiss them from being significant.

[faithlilly]

Have you never considered that people who criticise your wild assertions may be actually concerned about your state of mind?

I have often thought this.Slartibartfast.

[pegasus]

I'm not sure I follow your reasoning, p, there is no evidence to substantiate other theories put forward; but there are plenty of witness statements suggesting 5a was under surveillance which imo were not sufficiently investigated to dismiss them from being significant.

I understand how at the time in the panic at 10pm it looked like abduction.

But the combination of open window plus no typical loot items taken plus possible looking at the outside of the residence beforehand says to me very clearly: interrupted burglary.

As for the 40 minute delay before calling the police, I think it made sense to search first, and the group did ask someone to call earlier than that.

[Brietta]

I understand how at the time in the panic at 10pm it looked like abduction.

But the combination of open window plus no typical loot items taken plus possible looking at the outside of the residence beforehand says to me very clearly: interrupted burglary.

As for the 40 minute delay before calling the police, I think it made sense to search first, and the group did ask someone to call earlier than that.

I certainly agree that the confusion in calling the police is perfectly understandable and I have never understood why it has become such an issue of blame directed at the parents who were in bits.  In effect they did ask for the call to be made more timeously, it could not have occurred that had not been done immediately.

The 'laid back' attitude of the first attending officers who assessed on arrival that Madeleine had just wandered also wasted the 'golden hours' and is less understandable as they were disinterested professionals not caught up in the emotion of the moment.

Actually the number of suspicious people hanging around the apartment leading up to Madeleine's disappearance suggest the opposite of burglary to me.
Too much effort to justify going for tourist watches, passports, phones or small change left over at the end of a holiday.  Dr K McCann did not have expensive jewellery in the apartment.

Whoever put that amount of effort into surveillance were after something far more valuable than tourist belongings.

The other burglaries in the apartments were opportunistic in and out jobs helped with inside information, probably using a key and were probably to finance a drug habit ... I very much doubt that had Madeleine disturbed such a person it would have ended in her disappearance.

[pathfinder73]

What should I do?

1. Phone the police

OR

2. Examine the shutters

 &%+((£

[John]

What should I do?

1. Phone the police

OR

2. Examine the shutters

 &%+((£

...in the pitch dark?

[pegasus]

@Brietta yes the delay in phoning is understandable, it only became a problem when some people started claiming that the delay was the fault of the GNR not responding quick enough. In fact the GNR responded very quickly as soon as someone called them.

[John]

@Brietta yes the delay in phoning is understandable, it only became a problem when some people started claiming that the delay was the fault of the GNR not responding quick enough. In fact the GNR responded very quickly as soon as someone called them.

That's not entirely true as the GNR patrol continued with their work in Odiaxere before making their way  to Luz.  There was no urgency seemingly until the station commander made a second radio call to them to get a move on. It then became a case of blues and twos.

[pathfinder73]

...in the pitch dark?

Yes Dianne first then Fiona from their statements.

"However, she states that KATE had repeatedly commented that, on arriving at the bedroom, she had found the the window of the room, with its shutter, both open. Yet, she [DW] did not notice, while at the entrance to the room, if the window was or was not open.
- However, she wants to stress that immediately afterwards, she went outside the apartment in order to ascertain whether she would be able to raise the shutters by hand from the outside, and found it was impossible for her. (DW)

"And by that point Kate was already saying that the, what she'd found when she'd gone back, which was that the, she'd found the window open and the shutter open and she was convinced at that point that somebody had taken, taken Madeleine and that's what she was telling me and I was like 'They can't have done. I've already said earlier the shutters were very heavy.
I didn't actually open the shutter in that room, we went, I went to the front of the house and I was trying to lift the shutter at the, at the back, just to prove whether, you know, whether it could have been opened and whether Madeleine could have opened it from the inside'.

00.50.31
 1485
 'And''
 
 Reply
 'I mean, it was fairly obviously, I think, that that wasn't what had happened and what could have happened'(FP)

[pegasus]

That's not entirely true as the GNR patrol continued with their work in Odiaxere before making their way  to Luz.  There was no urgency seemingly until the station commander made a second radio call to them to get a move on. It then became a case of blues and twos.

At 2242 (first radio call) the patrol are in Odiaxere.
At 2251 (second radio call) the patrol is already passing through Valverde (outskirts of PDL).
They responded fast.
Snappy and excellent I would call it.
They drove 12km in a quarter the time it took some foreign peeps to not pull a mobile out their pocket.