Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.

[Redblossom]

I agree red that perhaps a lot of these discussions have been far too speculative. At the end of the day we have few actual facts in front of us.

Just to clarify with regarding the crimes (plural), I meant that, forgetting any theory linking burglars, there could still have been more than one serious crime that took place that night. An abduction plain and simple might be classed as a single crime, but a cover-up of a murder or accident followed by concealment of a body would constitute several serious crimes.

Oh I see, thank you, I misunderstood.In Portugal apparently that (accident and concealment) would not have been a heinous crime or par with any long prison sentence, if I have read properly, but dont quote me!

Re the safety issue we will have to disagree. Whether at home or abroad, I see no difference myself and sorry, no holiday company can "lull" a parent to do anything, they wouldnt do nrmally,  in fact, MW provided childcare, they didnt tell holidaymakers, its ok to leave your little uns on their own!  But yes lets not go round that circle again.

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

Oh I see, thank you, I misunderstood.In Portugal apparently that (accident and concealment) would not have been a heinous crime or par with any long prison sentence, if I have read properly, but dont quote me!

Re the safety issue we will have to disagree. Whether at home or abroad, I see no difference myself and sorry, no holiday company can "lull" a parent to do anything, they wouldnt do nrmally,  in fact, MW provided childcare, they didnt tell holidaymakers, its ok to leave your little uns on their own!  But yes lets not go round that circle again.

 

At the risk of going round and round, red, I should add that I don't think leaving them was right. It was a grave mistake. I was just asking myself if I could be capable of such a mistake, and I have to say in all honesty that very possibly I could have been.

I personally would have admitted to it, however...

[sadie]

Tin hat on, bunkered down


1.  OC employee, at least one, on the team, quite possibly all of them OC employees and also quite possibly burglars. 

2.  Three team members, including someone who Madeleine knew.  One the co-ordinator, watcher getaway driver.  One the lifter.  One bundleman.

3.  Madeleines name known (Mrs Carolyn Carpenters statement - "Madeleine Madeleine" whispered murmured).  Name used, therefore Madeleine was alive.

4.  Madeleine kept for a period, at least, at the OC Staff quarters, just up the road from the first Smith sighting in Rua D'Escola.  According to the 3A's a scream was heard coming from there.

5.  And a sensible reason given for the pick up car NOT to pick up.


"sadies theory" covers all these criteria .... and also the possible reasons for the window to have been open

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1327.15

Maybe Heris idea of a man leaning and lifting a standing Madeleine out is correct ?

Maybe SH's theory is correct ?

Maybe sadies theory is correct ?

.....  and who knows some of the other theories might be correct as well.

But two things are certain, sadies theory really needs 3 people and reinforces the passing of Madeleine from the lifter to bundleman, and the necessary arm change.  Explained before.

Sadies theory needs at least one OC person, maybe more amongst its team numbers, and that person would likely be someone (a woman?) who Madeleine knew and trusted.  sadies theory involved entrance and exit via the very hidden and very dark area by the front door.

"Heris theory"
... is feasible, if Madeleine knew the person outside the window and if they said they had come to fetch her to go to be with Mummy and Daddy ... or they had some nice sweeties, etc. she might well go across there and willingly be carried out.
I am troubled by this theory tho, because why would three peeps be needed ? ... also most people are right handed and would naturally, I think, tend to place a childs head on their right arm.  Bundleman carried on his left arm.
And Amaral said that there were no fibres, nor finger prints, except for Kates.  Difficult to do with no trace evidence remaining, I would have thought, but maybe a rapid, but thorough cleaning operation took place ?


I am sorry Sherlock, but I cannot find your theory to ponder over.

..... goading comment removed .....

What I am certain of, is that Heri must be congratulated for his immaculate. methodical and thorough approach to this mystery.  When he examines things he does it in the most critical and searching way possible.  Seems SY think so too   

[Sherlock Holmes]

Whichever way you slice it, Sadie, it is some such theory that SY are looking into at the moment.

Cynics disagree but I like to think that that's because they have a real reason for doing so - not because they've nothing better to do.

Regarding Heriberto's theory, I am puzzled by the idea of Madeleine recognising someone.

Why would someone who knew Madeleine risk revealing his identity by lifting the window and scaring her, or entering the apartment? Why would he be the one elected to perform this part of the operation?

[Cariad]

A appreciate your addition of the video clip here, red.

Yes, there are a lot of apparent contradictions with regard to how and why the children were left, and the explanations given for those things by the McCanns.

I don't want to go round and round the garden again with this discussion, but it does pertain to the thread relation to one of the things that has come up regularly on this forum, namely the thought that the McCanns and other holiday makers were lulled into a false sense of safety and security because they were on holiday at a resort.

As a (relatively new and inexperienced ) parent, and also as someone who has lived in other countries for periods of time (two continental European countries for periods of four and five years respectively, and six years spent in the Middle East) as well as having visited different places as a tourist, I often think about what it would have felt like to be in that particular resort as a parent, with all the similarities and differences it contained compared to being at home in Britain.

I ask myself  if I would ever consider leaving my children in this way if I had never heard of Madeleine's situation; if  I could be lulled into a false sense of security as apparently were the McCanns, and in all honesty I imagine that I probably could be. On holiday, a person is much more relaxed about most things and takes liberties he would not take at home. On the other hand it can be daunting being in a new place, though this was a resort, and many of the things one normally has to work out in a foreign country would be taken care of in that setting. Would one be thinking about crime, be it burglary or anything else? Probably not. Especially if everything had been done by Mark Warner to create the impression that everything in the garden was rosy.

Ok, you're not considering that your child will be nicked out of your apartment, far enough, but are you seriously saying that your go leave your child in an unlocked apartment, next to a swimming pool, out of earshot?

Forget crime and spend a moment thinking about your child waking up and being frightened in a strange environment and shouting for you. And you can't hear!

That's right, They're there all on their own, they're frightened and you can't hear your child crying or calling for you.

Are you still going to go out for dinner now?

That's why we (parents) don't just leave our kids alone. It's not just thoughts of fire and choking and the tiny possibility that they make get snatched by a smack addicted burglar cum tractor driver. It's the thought of the distress that would be caused to them by our absence.

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

Ok, you're not considering that your child will be nicked out of your apartment, far enough, but are you seriously saying that your go leave your child in an unlocked apartment, next to a swimming pool, out of earshot?

Forget crime and spend a moment thinking about your child waking up and being frightened in a strange environment and shouting for you. And you can't hear!

That's right, They're there all on their own, they're frightened and you can't hear your child crying or calling for you.

Are you still going to go out for dinner now?

That's why we (parents) don't just leave our kids alone. It's not just thoughts of fire and choking and the tiny possibility that they make get snatched by a smack addicted burglar cum tractor driver. It's the thought of the distress that would be caused to them by our absence.

I'm saying that perhaps I would forget about some of these safety issues if I were in holiday  'mode'. I might be able to convince myself that checking on them periodically was enough..not sure.

I'm not saying this was the right decision at all - it was clearly a grave error.

Remember also social pressure. There was a whole group of parents who for whatever reason decided to leave their kids. Perhaps not all the parents felt comfortable with the arrangement but went along with it because they saw that several people were doing it.

Again, I'm not saying it's right. Just trying to understand what it is that made the McCanns and the other parents there make that decision.

Maybe it wasn't the 'false sense of security' at the resort - but it must have been something!

[Cariad]

I'm saying that perhaps I would forget about some of these safety issues if I were in holiday  'mode'. I might be able to convince myself that checking on them periodically was enough..not sure.

I'm not saying this was the right decision at all - it was clearly a grave error.

Remember also social pressure. There was a whole group of parents who for whatever reason decided to leave their kids. Perhaps not all the parents felt comfortable with the arrangement but went along with it because they saw that several people were doing it.

Again, I'm not saying it's right. Just trying to understand what it is that made the McCanns and the other parents there make that decision.

Maybe it wasn't the 'false sense of security' at the resort - but it must have been something!

It really riles me that people claim they were within the realms of responsible parenting because they felt safe! It completely negates the children's right to feel safe. If any of those children woke up (and we've been told that Madeleine did at least once) then they are going to have felt very unsafe indeed.

No matter how secure I've felt in any environment, I've never forgotten that I'm a Mum.

Before I'm accused of portraying myself as a 'perfect parent' I've made many mistakes, but they were honest ones. They were the kind of trial and error mistakes that every parent makes, cause none of us are perfect.

Forgetting that your child may wake up in a strange place all alone and frightened is so far outside my idea of a 'mistake' that it's incomprehensible.

Anyway, I have the school run in the morning so I need my bed.

Nos da pawb

[Estuarine]

I'm saying that perhaps I would forget about some of these safety issues if I were in holiday  'mode'. I might be able to convince myself that checking on them periodically was enough..not sure.

I'm not saying this was the right decision at all - it was clearly a grave error.

Remember also social pressure. There was a whole group of parents who for whatever reason decided to leave their kids. Perhaps not all the parents felt comfortable with the arrangement but went along with it because they saw that several people were doing it.

Again, I'm not saying it's right. Just trying to understand what it is that made the McCanns and the other parents there make that decision.

Maybe it wasn't the 'false sense of security' at the resort - but it must have been something!

Whatever the name or perceived social status there is NO excuse for leaving kids under 4 on their own. The alleged basic thrust that some barrister said it was within the bounds of responsible parenting is bollocks as it flies in the face of NSPCC guidelines. Yes I know guidelines aren't law but as NSPCC would be considered the "authority" you would need a damn good reason for ignoring it when push comes to shove. I can think of reasons why they did it; we are in a foreign and we will get away with it.

[sadie]

Ok, you're not considering that your child will be nicked out of your apartment, far enough, but are you seriously saying that your go leave your child in an unlocked apartment, next to a swimming pool, out of earshot?

Forget crime and spend a moment thinking about your child waking up and being frightened in a strange environment and shouting for you. And you can't hear!

That's right, They're there all on their own, they're frightened and you can't hear your child crying or calling for you.

Are you still going to go out for dinner now?

That's why we (parents) don't just leave our kids alone. It's not just thoughts of fire and choking and the tiny possibility that they make get snatched by a smack addicted burglar cum tractor driver. It's the thought of the distress that would be caused to them by our absence.

1.  Next to a swimming pool?  Wrong.  The Tapas group was next to a swimming group.  Madeleine was NOT unless she could climb 5 foot walls.

2.  The half hour check is an old established checking system thought thoroughly acceptable for decades.  Butlins/Pontins did a simple listening check.  Smart hotels did a similar check.  No longer tho ... not since Madeleine disappeared.
The Mccanns checks were visual at half hour intervals + there was an additional listening one by Matt.
Additionally the Tapas outdoor restaurant was only 50 metres away and in sight.  Madeleine was a noisy and bold child.  Had she come out of those patio doors she would have immediately seen her parents in the lighted restauarnt and yelled.

Our house had a 50 metre back garden and we had no problems hearing our children yell when we were beyond the small orchard and talking to friends/neighbours over the back fence.  A mother, maybe a father too, is tuned into the sounds of her childs cry and will hear it above all else.

[sadie]

Whichever way you slice it, Sadie, it is some such theory that SY are looking into at the moment.

Cynics disagree but I like to think that that's because they have a real reason for doing so - not because they've nothing better to do.

Regarding Heriberto's theory, I am puzzled by the idea of Madeleine recognising someone.

Why would someone who knew Madeleine risk revealing his identity by lifting the window and scaring her, or entering the apartment? Why would he be the one elected to perform this part of the operation?

But if it were a she, or even a he, who Madeleine knew well, would it scare her ?  Especially if the person said that mummy had sent her to fetch her ?

[Redblossom]

The Mccanns checks were visual

gerry says they werent, he must know! and kate intimates they werent (both in the documentary Madeleine Was Here) so....
 >@@(*&)

you can strike that off your list of assertions/facts

as its untrue and has been pointed out umpteen times before!

[icabodcrane]

I'm saying that perhaps I would forget about some of these safety issues if I were in holiday  'mode'. I might be able to convince myself that checking on them periodically was enough..not sure.

I'm not saying this was the right decision at all - it was clearly a grave error.

Remember also social pressure. There was a whole group of parents who for whatever reason decided to leave their kids. Perhaps not all the parents felt comfortable with the arrangement but went along with it because they saw that several people were doing it.

Again, I'm not saying it's right. Just trying to understand what it is that made the McCanns and the other parents there make that decision.

Maybe it wasn't the 'false sense of security' at the resort - but it must have been something!

Not having this Sherlock

You are a small step away from the oft repeated,  "We all do it"  ...  slightly altered to,  "We are all capable of doing it"   

Not so  ...  not by a long chalk

[Sherlock Holmes]

Not having this Sherlock

You are a small step away from the oft repeated,  "We all do it"  ...  slightly altered to,  "We are all capable of doing it"   

Not so  ...  not by a long chalk

I'll have another ponder about this, icabod. As you know I am am not a quick thinker; more of a ruminator.

I still would say that I am just trying to find a reason why these parents did something that presumably they never did at home. Don't think the McCanns went down to the local in Rothley and left the children alone in the house. It simply would not have occurred to them to do such a thing.

I take your point that trying to explain something is the thin end of the wedge to justifying it. I see this in America all the time with the therapy culture. Reasons why people are supposed to have done things are readily given and discussed. It's not long after that that people come to be seen purely as victims and products of their circumstances, and moral responsibility is forgotten.

Having said all that, there must be a reason why the McCanns and several other couples did what they did, and I don't see what's wrong in essence with trying to work that out. 

[Sherlock Holmes]

But if it were a she, or even a he, who Madeleine knew well, would it scare her ?  Especially if the person said that mummy had sent her to fetch her ?

In that case you have the question of why the person would have needed to silence her? The child Smithman was carrying had her arms down her body, as though she had been drugged or knocked out. Having her arms around the man's neck would be a more normal way of carrying.

The child bundleman was carrying also looked, according to the position in which she was lying, as though she were asleep or possibly drugged or knocked out.

If Madeleine had come compliantly to the abductor, having recognised the person, she would had to have been awake to do so. Would she suddenly have fallen asleep again a few minutes later, whilst in the abductor's arms?

[Redblossom]

SH the others took rudimentary precautions ie locked both their front and back doors so the kids couldnt get out..not the same as the mccanns who left  their back door open and cant remember if they locked the front one or not!!
Unbelievable!
Nite now