Leonor Cipriano, her confession and subsequent silence in the killing of her daughter Joana.

[Carana]

Maybe he was kicked after he confessed....and not before
No way of knowing is there? Did he ever retract his confession?

 >@@(*&)

Which confession?

No, there's no way of knowing how he was treated... comprehensive CCTV and recorded interviews would have clarified all this.

[Redblossom]

Which confession?

No, there's no way of knowing how he was treated... comprehensive CCTV and recorded interviews would have clarified all this.

Did he make more than one? The taped confession that was played in court. And, I agree, there is no way of knowing at which point he was kicked, before or after......

So did he retract it?

[Carana]

Did he make more than one? The taped confession that was played in court. And, I agree, there is no way of knowing at which point he was kicked, before or after......

So did he retract it?

There was the taped reconstruction, which served as a confession in court, and was considered as a legal and valid alternative means of proof as it was supposedly "voluntary". I'm not aware that anything he may have said prior to that was recorded.

According to one article on here, he supposedly admitted to something or other at the end of the initial interrogation, but then refused to sign at the last minute and shifted half the blame to Leonor. It would take a while to find what he may or may not have signed in the end.

I don't see how he (or Leonor) could have retracted anything in court as the lawyers had advised them to remain silent.

[Redblossom]

There was the taped reconstruction, which served as a confession in court, and was considered as a legal and valid alternative means of proof as it was supposedly "voluntary". I'm not aware that anything he may have said prior to that was recorded.

According to one article on here, he supposedly admitted to something or other at the end of the initial interrogation, but then refused to sign at the last minute and shifted half the blame to Leonor. It would take a while to find what he may or may not have signed in the end.

I don't see how he (or Leonor) could have retracted anything in court as the lawyers had advised them to remain silent.

So all conjecture and supposition then. And wonderful of two innocent people (siblings as well) shifting the blame on each other don't you think?

PS
You don't have to be in court to retract a confession!

Era

I take it then the brother never retracted his confession as his sister did, if not, why not?

[Carana]

I had thought a while back that he was a serious druggie, willing to do anything to get a fix. Since I started looking into this case, I haven't found anything to substantiate that. The family admit that he took drugs, but when, what and how frequently doesn't seem to have been investigated. Leandro said that he was known to hve taken drugs, but didn't think that it went as far as anything injectable and thought that latterly he just smoked dope.

If João was into the crack or bath-salt scene, I'd have more reservations about him, but I haven't found anything to substantiate that.

[Eleanor]

I believe that Joao was beaten and threatened with more beatings.  If they will beat a woman then they wouldn't think twice about beating a man.

[Carana]

So all conjecture and supposition then. And wonderful of two innocent people (siblings as well) shifting the blame on each other don't you think?

PS
You don't have to be in court to retract a confession!

Era

I take it then the brother never retracted his confession as his sister did, if not, why not?

As I said just earlier, he apparently refused to sign that initial confession.

Yes, I would find it odd that siblings would shift the blame onto each other if you get on, but it's hard to tell what exactly happened while they were being plied with coffee and biscuits at the PJ coffeeshop.

[Redblossom]

I believe that Joao was beaten and threatened with more beatings.  If they will beat a woman then they wouldn't think twice about beating a man.

Well that's you

[Carana]

I believe that Joao was beaten and threatened with more beatings.  If they will beat a woman then they wouldn't think twice about beating a man.

Leandro found the original Portimão PJ team quite civilised and wished they'd stayed on the case. The rough treatment started when the Faro boys took over, later reinforced by the DCCB boys from Lisbon.

[Redblossom]

As I said just earlier, he apparently refused to sign that initial confession.

Yes, I would find it odd that siblings would shift the blame onto each other if you get on, but it's hard to tell what exactly happened while they were being plied with coffee and biscuits at the PJ coffeeshop.

hang on,  you said he refused to admit to "something or other" at the end of an initial interrogation...and didn't  sign something...that can't be the same as a taped confession can it? As a taped confession is not "something or other"


As for coffee and biscuits, being plied as you put it,  I would never ever accuse my innocent sibling of anything so gross or anything at all, they could torture me to death if they wanted, get a grip won't you

[Eleanor]

Leandro found the original Portimão PJ team quite civilised and wished they'd stayed on the case. The rough treatment started when the Faro boys took over, later reinforced by the DCCB boys from Lisbon.

Ah, The Boys From Lisbon.  Unknown faces.  What were they doing, getting involved?

[Carana]

According to my notes:


12 Sept 04 - Joana disappeared
13 Sept 04 - verbal report to GNR in the night, formal report to GNR later that morning.
(GNR searches with dogs for a few days)

17 Sept - case transferred to Portimão PJ

21 Sept - Case transferred from to Portimão PJ to the PJ Directory in Faro. "The inspectors had no idea they now had in their hands one of the most complex cases ever confronted."

And from the SC witness statements, witness CC3, the coordinator of the Faro boys, was Amaral.

[Carana]

Ah, The Boys From Lisbon.  Unknown faces.  What were they doing, getting involved?

Giving a "helping hand" to "elicit" where a body may have been dumped?

To be fair, though, those involved in the Madeleine case seem to have been ok... but that was a few years later.

[Carana]

hang on,  you said he refused to admit to "something or other" at the end of an initial interrogation...and didn't  sign something...that can't be the same as a taped confession can it? As a taped confession is not "something or other"


As for coffee and biscuits, being plied as you put it,  I would never ever accuse my innocent sibling of anything so gross or anything at all, they could torture me to death if they wanted, get a grip won't you

The reconstruction (the only piece of "evidence" that appears to have been recorded) was quite some time after they'd both been charged and remanded in custody.

[Redblossom]

The reconstruction (the only piece of "evidence" that appears to have been recorded) was quite some time after they'd both been charged and remanded in custod

Que? So? Did he retract his statement or not carana and if  not why not if it was beaten out of him, his sister managed to do so

Also please stop ignoring issues changing the subject and obfuscating