Did the PJ conduct a proper search for evidence at OC?

[sadie]

I wouldn't dare correct you, Sadie.

Good, but I didn't think you were a wimp?

But you know what the problem is. Not only did nobody see the window open before 10pm, but they also seem reluctant to say they saw it open at 10 (or shortly after).

How could they not see it?

Several reasons are possible lyall.
It was really dark in there.
Crossing from the car park entrance to the end of the walled pathway every flat tenant had to use, meant that the eye of the walker going in or out was always at a point that the periferal vision did not pick up the window at all.  That is assuming that the walker was looking at the light in the direction they were walking
Once in the walled pathway it was curved so that even when walking towards that window, the window was out of sight behind the curve of the apartments walls.

No-one walked past the lobby to the other apartments .... so no-one ever noticed whether the shutters were raised or not.

Additionally the shutters are very close in colour to the walls of the building, so in poor light would likely blend with each other



Please also notice that the bottom of the shutter is hidden by the wall.  Do we know how far open the shutter was?  Maybe it was only open a few centimetres and the opening was out of sight anyway, behind the pathway wall?

[sadie]

The image is forteshortened Pathfinder.  The window is too narrow for a man to climb thru, without a huge struggle and marks/ fibres left.   Personally I dont think any wo/man went thru there.  I also prefer to think that Madeleine went thru the front door with the lifter; it is the logical route for me.

But Heri puts forward a sound enough theory and he might be right.

As you can see, even in full daylight, when someone walks thru the car park entrance gap, the front door is out of sight.  Completely hidden, behind the apartment block wall.

The front door is also very recessed so almost no light would illuminate it at night.  It is so obviously the way into (and out of) the apartment for an intruder.  Using a key, so no finger prints.

[Lyall]

Good, but I didn't think you were a wimp?
Several reasons are possible lyall.
It was really dark in there.
Crossing from the car park entrance to the end of the walled pathway every flat tenant had to use, meant that the eye of the walker going in or out was always at a point that the periferal vision did not pick up the window at all.  That is assuming that the walker was looking at the light in the direction they were walking
Once in the walled pathway it was curved so that even when walking towards that window, the window was out of sight behind the curve of the apartments walls.

No-one walked past the lobby to the other apartments .... so no-one ever noticed whether the shutters were raised or not.

Additionally the shutters are very close in colour to the walls of the building, so in poor light would likely blend with each other



Please also notice that the bottom of the shutter is hidden by the wall.  Do we know how far open the shutter was?  Maybe it was only open a few centimetres and the opening was out of sight anyway, behind the pathway wall?

Of course we don't.

But maybe, just maybe, instead of your physics (which surely can't work when people are walking in two different directions? Into the carpark and then out again - how can the same explanation work twice?) maybe the window wasn't open at all when everyone was passing by it?

That seems to be what DCI Redwood thinks.

And if it wasn't open after the last of the diners had passed it and gone back to the Tapas, who's to say it was ever open at all before the alarm was raised?

[sadie]

Of course we don't.

But maybe, just maybe, instead of your physics (which surely can't work when people are walking in two different directions? Into the carpark and then out again - how can the same explanation work twice?) maybe the window wasn't open at all when everyone was passing by it?

That seems to be what DCI Redwood thinks.

And if it wasn't open after the last of the diners had passed it and gone back to the Tapas, who's to say it was ever open at all before the alarm was raised?

This has all been gone over before Lyall.  Most unlikely that anyone walking to and fro from the appartments would have seen the raised shutter in their periferal vision.
Most especially so as little street light would have been able to penetrate the canopy of the tree tops and the place was very dimly lit.  Also with the gusty conditions the trees would be swaying about a good bit and would be a further distraction.   20mph gusts at about that time according to the info I posted in an earlier thread ... and taken from official records


Am tired now.

Nigh night Lyall ... and anyone else still up


According to the statement of GNR officer Antonio Henrique de Conceicao Duarte the shutters were open at about 11.30pm
 
'When questioned he replies that he remembers that the blinds of the window of the child's room were open, but inclined (the lower part, at about a hand's width). He does not remember if the window was open or what the state of the curtains was. He did not enter the room because he was told, he does not remember by whom, that the twins were sleeping.'

[pegasus]

Having previously thought that the shutter and window were opened (or claimed to be open) to deliberately fake an abduction, I later studied the finger/thumb print evidence, and came to the conclusion that KM genuinely found the window and shutter already open, and moreover it was not any group member who opened them to fake an abduction, but rather an unconnected third party who opened them. This does not mean the third party was responsible for the disappearance, nor that E was lying. It does mean that KM is honest. All just IMO.

[pathfinder73]

And an abductor would risk waking the twins by opening shutters. An open window so if Madeleine started screaming everyone could hear. No abductor opened them. Any way you look at it, it doesn't make sense and too much to lose.

[sadie]

Not at all..what you choose to believe is based on faith..
truth is what you arrive at after looking at all the available evidence..
It doesn't make me popular to say that those who come from a scientific background..like myself...have learnt how to assess evidence to reach a valid conclusion. A lot of posters on here just accept the evidence that fits their agenda without criticism...thats why they have come to the wrong conclusion

 

And they enjoy putting the boot in ... not all but a sizeable group.  Seems it gives them a feeling of power

[Sherlock Holmes]

@  Sadie

It would indeed be hard to see if the shutters were raised from the car park, particularly in the dark - if they were only raised a few inches.

But doesn't Kate McCann paint a picture of the shutters being much further open? She describes the shutters as being 'raised', which implies more than just a small amount. And as for the gust of wind that was  strong enough to blow the curtains as dramatically as she describes? How could there be such a gust through only a small gap at the bottom of the shutters? The window was also somewhat protected by the small wall in front whose level was above the bottom of the window frame. So hard to understand how gusts of wind would reach all the way inside that window unless the shutters were much further open.

Kate also imagined an abductor having left the apartment with Madeleine when she saw those shutters - so they would have had to be more than an inch or two open for her to imagine such a thing.

[Sherlock Holmes]

If anyone was "sure" then the police would be sure too

 >@@(*&)

maybe "convinced would be a better word here

Convinced is a good word, yes.

And he certainly seems to be so...

[jassi]

@  Sadie

It would indeed be hard to see if the shutters were raised from the car park, particularly in the dark - if they were only raised a few inches.

But doesn't Kate McCann paint a picture of the shutters being much further open? She describes the shutters as being 'raised', which implies more than just a small amount. And as for the gust of wind that was  strong enough to blow the curtains as dramatically as she describes? How could there be such a gust through only a small gap at the bottom of the shutters? The window was also somewhat protected by the small wall in front whose level was above the bottom of the window frame. So hard to understand how gusts of wind would reach all the way inside that window unless the shutters were much further open.

Kate also imagined an abductor having left the apartment with Madeleine when she saw those shutters - so they would have had to be more than an inch or two open for her to imagine such a thing.

How would she know, anyway? Others had been in the apartment since she left it at 8.30 and might have altered things.

[Redblossom]

@  Sadie

It would indeed be hard to see if the shutters were raised from the car park, particularly in the dark - if they were only raised a few inches.

But doesn't Kate McCann paint a picture of the shutters being much further open? She describes the shutters as being 'raised', which implies more than just a small amount. And as for the gust of wind that was  strong enough to blow the curtains as dramatically as she describes? How could there be such a gust through only a small gap at the bottom of the shutters? The window was also somewhat protected by the small wall in front whose level was above the bottom of the window frame. So hard to understand how gusts of wind would reach all the way inside that window unless the shutters were much further open.

Kate also imagined an abductor having left the apartment with Madeleine when she saw those shutters - so they would have had to be more than an inch or two open for her to imagine such a thing.

the shutters described as beng paritally open by inches as late as 11.30 by a policeman have nothng to do with anything

they had been lowered and raised and lowered again long before then

[Redblossom]

Convinced is a good word, yes.

And he certainly seems to be so...

We know, but he can't be sure that what he s convnced of is true can he? two different things entirely, opinion /conviction and fact/truth

[Sherlock Holmes]

We know, but he can't be sure that what he s convnced of is true can he? two different things entirely, opinion /conviction and fact/truth

An opinion is a personal view that is based on fact. There has to be a factual element. Otherwise it's not an opinion - just a statement of little value.

Whatever you want to call it, SY and others do seem to be following a similar line of logic.

[sadie]

@  Sadie

It would indeed be hard to see if the shutters were raised from the car park, particularly in the dark - if they were only raised a few inches.

But doesn't Kate McCann paint a picture of the shutters being much further open? She describes the shutters as being 'raised', which implies more than just a small amount. And as for the gust of wind that was  strong enough to blow the curtains as dramatically as she describes? How could there be such a gust through only a small gap at the bottom of the shutters? The window was also somewhat protected by the small wall in front whose level was above the bottom of the window frame. So hard to understand how gusts of wind would reach all the way inside that window unless the shutters were much further open.

Kate also imagined an abductor having left the apartment with Madeleine when she saw those shutters - so they would have had to be more than an inch or two open for her to imagine such a thing.

A hands width at the bottom, but inclined (so a hurried departure?)


According to the statement of GNR officer Antonio Henrique de Conceicao Duarte the shutters were open at about 11.30pm.

From his statement below
'When questioned he replies that he remembers that the blinds of the window of the child's room were open, but inclined (the lower part, at about a hand's width). He does not remember if the window was open or what the state of the curtains was. He did not enter the room because he was told, he does not remember by whom, that the twins were sleeping.'

[Sherlock Holmes]

A hands width at the bottom, but inclined (so a hurried departure?)


According to the statement of GNR officer Antonio Henrique de Conceicao Duarte the shutters were open at about 11.30pm.

From his statement below
'When questioned he replies that he remembers that the blinds of the window of the child's room were open, but inclined (the lower part, at about a hand's width). He does not remember if the window was open or what the state of the curtains was. He did not enter the room because he was told, he does not remember by whom, that the twins were sleeping.'

But what about at 10 pm (or thereabouts) when Kate came into the room?

Could a gust and a 'whoooosh' of the dramatic proportions she describes from just a few inches of open window?

I understand that it was indeed a chilly, somewhat blustery night. Do we know anything about wind direction and so on, in relation to the house and the window? Remember reading it on here somewhere...