Author Topic: Jeremy Bamber - The Tragedy of little Nicolas and Daniel.  (Read 5348 times)

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Offline Andrea

Jeremy Bamber - The Tragedy of little Nicolas and Daniel.
« on: June 18, 2012, 09:53:22 PM »
At what point do you think the twins were killed? The police reckon that they were unaware of the events that had unfolded because one twin was still sucking his thumb. I always imagined the twins to be shot first, had they been awake i think they would have almost certainly got out of their beds to see what was going on. It appears that they were sleeping when murdered, i hope they were sleeping  8(8-))

Had they been awake? can you imagine the fear, the carnage those little boys witnessed. Then to be finished off themselves by uncle Jem.

Doesnt bare thinking about, does it  8(8-))
« Last Edit: February 20, 2014, 12:31:32 AM by John »

Offline starryian

Re: Jeremy Bamber - The Tragedy of little Nicolas and Daniel.
« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2012, 08:03:42 AM »
                                                     The Tragedy of little Nicolas and Daniel
Thank you Andrea for the response,
It is a very interesting question about the twins. Let's be honest, this is an area that even in my worse nightmare I would not want to think about. The murder of adults, as heinous and despicable as it is, we can at least process the information and look at it with an analytical frame of mind. However the cold-blooded murder of two beautiful, defenseless children is quite another matter. These two innocents are akin to the tale of the 'Two Princes in the Tower'. Ironically both murdered by their evil uncle (Richard III). Both murdered because they were in the way of a psychopath's lust for money and power.
'It is time to stiffen the sinew and summon-up the blood' as Shakespeare would say. The twins I believe were murdered next to last. That horrible distinction belongs to Sheila. I have several reasons for believing this to be the case. Firstly the physical layout of the farmhouse upper floor meant that in order for Bamber to kill them first he would have had to creep past the door of both his parents bedroom and that of Sheila. June, has by all accounts highly acute hearing. She was super-sensitive to noise of any kind and was often in the habit of asking her husband to go and investigate noises that she had heard during the night. Bamber must have known this.
Secondly, Bamber knew that there would be no way out for the twins should they awake and panic. The stairs was their only exit, and even if they did manage to get past him, where would they go? all the door were securely bolted, beyond their reach. In short, Bamber did noit need to control the twins in the same way as the others, Nevil in particular was the greatest threat to thwarting his evil plan. The 6ft 4" physically-fit farmer was a present and very real barrier to Bambers twisted machinations. This is why I believe Bamber shot Nevil first, in the master bedroom upon entering- he wanted to eliminate the greatest threat. After the fight in the kitchen Bamber went back upstairs and was shocked to find June still alive. He coldly shot her between the eyes, killing her instantly. It was at this point that Bamber literally crept into the twins' bedroom. (This was later sub-consciously re-enacted by Bamber when Ann Eaton asked Bamber to walk around the house with her after the murders. She states that when Bamber came to the door of the twins bedroom, 'he went in very silent and crept in like a cat') There is something Freudian about Bamber's demenour that day. There were many such instances of him sub-consciously playing out what happened that night, such as Bamber returning to the farm a few weeks after the murders and gaining access by slipping the catch on the kitchen window and climbing through. Incredibly, the very window he was accused of climbing through the night of the murders. He later claimed he climbed through it in order to access to 'retrieve some documents because he has forgotten his keys'
The twins thankfully did not wake. They were shot while they slept. 5 shots into the back of the head of little Nicholas and three into the back of the head of little Daniel. Nicholas still had his thumb in his mouth when his body was discovered. This was indeed somewhat of an overkill that has been played on by Bamber supporters. I beg to differ. I believe that Bamber shot them numerous times because he simply wasnt sure that they were dead.
It also highlights the fact that there was, without doubt, a silencer fitted to the rifle. The whole house would have been alerted had it not. Sheila would probably have been woken from her stupor and little Daniel would almost certainly have been startled when the shot were fired at his brother (who slept immediately next to him in an adjacent bed) This further add weight to the theiry that Bamber almost certainly used a silencer when commiting the murders. He later wiped the silencer down with one of Sheila's tampons and replaced it in the gun cupboard. His biggest mistake and one that finally got him caught.
If there could be anything more tragic than ther loss of a mother, a doting grandmother and grandfather, it was the loss of these twin boys. Heartlessly Bamber had brutally snuffed out the lives of the two little boys who had earlier been excited to see their 'Uncle Jem'.
If anyone needs any further reason to keep this psychopathic, twisted animal incarcerated for the rest of his life, I would urge them to look no further than what he did to these innocent little boys to enhance his own lifestyle.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2012, 08:05:31 AM by starryian »
Starryian..

Offline Angelo222

Re: Jeremy Bamber - The Tragedy of little Nicolas and Daniel.
« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2012, 09:31:40 AM »
                                                     The Tragedy of little Nicolas and Daniel
Thank you Andrea for the response,
It is a very interesting question about the twins. Let's be honest, this is an area that even in my worse nightmare I would not want to think about. The murder of adults, as heinous and despicable as it is, we can at least process the information and look at it with an analytical frame of mind. However the cold-blooded murder of two beautiful, defenseless children is quite another matter. These two innocents are akin to the tale of the 'Two Princes in the Tower'. Ironically both murdered by their evil uncle (Richard III). Both murdered because they were in the way of a psychopath's lust for money and power.
'It is time to stiffen the sinew and summon-up the blood' as Shakespeare would say. The twins I believe were murdered next to last. That horrible distinction belongs to Sheila. I have several reasons for believing this to be the case. Firstly the physical layout of the farmhouse upper floor meant that in order for Bamber to kill them first he would have had to creep past the door of both his parents bedroom and that of Sheila. June, has by all accounts highly acute hearing. She was super-sensitive to noise of any kind and was often in the habit of asking her husband to go and investigate noises that she had heard during the night. Bamber must have known this.
Secondly, Bamber knew that there would be no way out for the twins should they awake and panic. The stairs was their only exit, and even if they did manage to get past him, where would they go? all the door were securely bolted, beyond their reach. In short, Bamber did noit need to control the twins in the same way as the others, Nevil in particular was the greatest threat to thwarting his evil plan. The 6ft 4" physically-fit farmer was a present and very real barrier to Bambers twisted machinations. This is why I believe Bamber shot Nevil first, in the master bedroom upon entering- he wanted to eliminate the greatest threat. After the fight in the kitchen Bamber went back upstairs and was shocked to find June still alive. He coldly shot her between the eyes, killing her instantly. It was at this point that Bamber literally crept into the twins' bedroom. (This was later sub-consciously re-enacted by Bamber when Ann Eaton asked Bamber to walk around the house with her after the murders. She states that when Bamber came to the door of the twins bedroom, 'he went in very silent and crept in like a cat') There is something Freudian about Bamber's demenour that day. There were many such instances of him sub-consciously playing out what happened that night, such as Bamber returning to the farm a few weeks after the murders and gaining access by slipping the catch on the kitchen window and climbing through. Incredibly, the very window he was accused of climbing through the night of the murders. He later claimed he climbed through it in order to access to 'retrieve some documents because he has forgotten his keys'
The twins thankfully did not wake. They were shot while they slept. 5 shots into the back of the head of little Nicholas and three into the back of the head of little Daniel. Nicholas still had his thumb in his mouth when his body was discovered. This was indeed somewhat of an overkill that has been played on by Bamber supporters. I beg to differ. I believe that Bamber shot them numerous times because he simply wasnt sure that they were dead.
It also highlights the fact that there was, without doubt, a silencer fitted to the rifle. The whole house would have been alerted had it not. Sheila would probably have been woken from her stupor and little Daniel would almost certainly have been startled when the shot were fired at his brother (who slept immediately next to him in an adjacent bed) This further add weight to the theiry that Bamber almost certainly used a silencer when commiting the murders. He later wiped the silencer down with one of Sheila's tampons and replaced it in the gun cupboard. His biggest mistake and one that finally got him caught.
If there could be anything more tragic than ther loss of a mother, a doting grandmother and grandfather, it was the loss of these twin boys. Heartlessly Bamber had brutally snuffed out the lives of the two little boys who had earlier been excited to see their 'Uncle Jem'.
If anyone needs any further reason to keep this psychopathic, twisted animal incarcerated for the rest of his life, I would urge them to look no further than what he did to these innocent little boys to enhance his own lifestyle.

Just to clarify Ian. Daniel was shot in the back of the head 5 times while Nicholas was shot in the face 3 times.

You would be hard pushed to get any hitman to ever do such a thing.  Only a raving psychopath will intricate knowledge of the murder weapon could have done such a thing. When asked about murdering the children some months earlier, Jeremy Bamber casually told Julie Mugford that they would be better off dead!

What a callous prick!
De troothe has the annoying habit of coming to the surface just when you least expect it!!

Je ne regrette rien!!

Offline Joanne

Re: Jeremy Bamber - The Tragedy of little Nicolas and Daniel.
« Reply #3 on: June 20, 2012, 12:40:13 PM »
Hit people don't ususally target pets and animals-from what I know of course and not who I know.  8(8-))

Offline abs

Re: Jeremy Bamber - The Tragedy of little Nicolas and Daniel.
« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2012, 08:55:30 PM »
                                                     The Tragedy of little Nicolas and Daniel
Thank you Andrea for the response,
It is a very interesting question about the twins. Let's be honest, this is an area that even in my worse nightmare I would not want to think about. The murder of adults, as heinous and despicable as it is, we can at least process the information and look at it with an analytical frame of mind. However the cold-blooded murder of two beautiful, defenseless children is quite another matter. These two innocents are akin to the tale of the 'Two Princes in the Tower'. Ironically both murdered by their evil uncle (Richard III). Both murdered because they were in the way of a psychopath's lust for money and power.
'It is time to stiffen the sinew and summon-up the blood' as Shakespeare would say. The twins I believe were murdered next to last. That horrible distinction belongs to Sheila. I have several reasons for believing this to be the case. Firstly the physical layout of the farmhouse upper floor meant that in order for Bamber to kill them first he would have had to creep past the door of both his parents bedroom and that of Sheila. June, has by all accounts highly acute hearing. She was super-sensitive to noise of any kind and was often in the habit of asking her husband to go and investigate noises that she had heard during the night. Bamber must have known this.
Secondly, Bamber knew that there would be no way out for the twins should they awake and panic. The stairs was their only exit, and even if they did manage to get past him, where would they go? all the door were securely bolted, beyond their reach. In short, Bamber did noit need to control the twins in the same way as the others, Nevil in particular was the greatest threat to thwarting his evil plan. The 6ft 4" physically-fit farmer was a present and very real barrier to Bambers twisted machinations. This is why I believe Bamber shot Nevil first, in the master bedroom upon entering- he wanted to eliminate the greatest threat. After the fight in the kitchen Bamber went back upstairs and was shocked to find June still alive. He coldly shot her between the eyes, killing her instantly. It was at this point that Bamber literally crept into the twins' bedroom. (This was later sub-consciously re-enacted by Bamber when Ann Eaton asked Bamber to walk around the house with her after the murders. She states that when Bamber came to the door of the twins bedroom, 'he went in very silent and crept in like a cat') There is something Freudian about Bamber's demenour that day. There were many such instances of him sub-consciously playing out what happened that night, such as Bamber returning to the farm a few weeks after the murders and gaining access by slipping the catch on the kitchen window and climbing through. Incredibly, the very window he was accused of climbing through the night of the murders. He later claimed he climbed through it in order to access to 'retrieve some documents because he has forgotten his keys'
The twins thankfully did not wake. They were shot while they slept. 5 shots into the back of the head of little Nicholas and three into the back of the head of little Daniel. Nicholas still had his thumb in his mouth when his body was discovered. This was indeed somewhat of an overkill that has been played on by Bamber supporters. I beg to differ. I believe that Bamber shot them numerous times because he simply wasnt sure that they were dead.
It also highlights the fact that there was, without doubt, a silencer fitted to the rifle. The whole house would have been alerted had it not. Sheila would probably have been woken from her stupor and little Daniel would almost certainly have been startled when the shot were fired at his brother (who slept immediately next to him in an adjacent bed) This further add weight to the theiry that Bamber almost certainly used a silencer when commiting the murders. He later wiped the silencer down with one of Sheila's tampons and replaced it in the gun cupboard. His biggest mistake and one that finally got him caught.
If there could be anything more tragic than ther loss of a mother, a doting grandmother and grandfather, it was the loss of these twin boys. Heartlessly Bamber had brutally snuffed out the lives of the two little boys who had earlier been excited to see their 'Uncle Jem'.
If anyone needs any further reason to keep this psychopathic, twisted animal incarcerated for the rest of his life, I would urge them to look no further than what he did to these innocent little boys to enhance his own lifestyle.

I have a hard time seeing that three people (Sheila, Nicholas and Daniel) could all have slept through what MUST have been quite a bit noisy, silencer or not. Dog barking, shots, shouting, yelling, screaming, thumping, sound of footsteps etc. They were right beside June and Ralph´s bedroom. June and Ralph didn´t die at once, people don´t let themselves be shot without pleading, yelling, screaming.

I always have this question in my mind - where was Sheila during all of this? I know that people say that she would have been cowering in her room, scared to death; but I think that is making her too passive. She had two kids - most mothers become virtual lionesses when their little ones are in danger or even killed.

Offline starryian

Re: Jeremy Bamber - The Tragedy of little Nicolas and Daniel.
« Reply #5 on: June 21, 2012, 06:39:01 AM »
Some good points there. However, the dog was cowering either in or next to a semi-opened wardrobe. The shouting would have been virtually confined to the kitchen as June was in no state to shout - Bamber had shot her in neck upon bursting in to the bedroom. I think all-in-all there was not that much noise. Certainly not as much as one would first think. Farm worker Len Noakes who lived in the workers cottage very close to the farm did not hear a thing and his windows were open on that muggy August night.
I believe Bamber crept around the house, rifle and silencer in hand, killing them one-by-one. The only noise would have eminated from the fight in the kitchen and by this time, June was incapacitated, Sheila was still in a sleepy stupor and the twins had the door to their bedroom shut and had been asleep for hours. It is really no mystery as to why Bamber was able to murder these poor people. He had obviously thought this through very carefully and murdered them when they were at their most vulnerable.
Starryian..

Offline Angelo222

Re: Jeremy Bamber - The Tragedy of little Nicolas and Daniel.
« Reply #6 on: June 21, 2012, 09:07:51 AM »
I have a hard time seeing that three people (Sheila, Nicholas and Daniel) could all have slept through what MUST have been quite a bit noisy, silencer or not. Dog barking, shots, shouting, yelling, screaming, thumping, sound of footsteps etc. They were right beside June and Ralph´s bedroom. June and Ralph didn´t die at once, people don´t let themselves be shot without pleading, yelling, screaming.

I always have this question in my mind - where was Sheila during all of this? I know that people say that she would have been cowering in her room, scared to death; but I think that is making her too passive. She had two kids - most mothers become virtual lionesses when their little ones are in danger or even killed.

Jeremy would have thought this out very carefully.  Sheila was probably locked in her bedroom and wouldn't have had a clue what the hell was going on.  I don't think she ever saw Nevill or the twins so she was at least spared that trauma.

De troothe has the annoying habit of coming to the surface just when you least expect it!!

Je ne regrette rien!!

Offline starryian

Re: Jeremy Bamber - The Tragedy of little Nicolas and Daniel.
« Reply #7 on: June 21, 2012, 01:17:57 PM »
Yes very good point David,
I think Sheila was thankfully spared the sight on what Bamber did to her little boys. What transpired between Bamber and Sheila that night only Bamber truly knows. I believe her got her out of her bedroom under some sort of ruse/threat about her children. I also believe that he threatened her by claiming that he would harm her boys if she did not comply and lie down in the position she was later found. I am almost certain of it. She did not know at this stage that her boys were probably already dead. Sheila almost certainly would have seen the dead body of June lying on the floor outside the master bedroom where she was later found. It is highly probable that Bamber showed Sheila June's body in an attempt to back up his threat of what would happen to her boys if she failed to comply.
It must have been a heartrending scene of a mother desparately trying to save the lives of her beloved boys.
This evil, psychopathic monster probably thought he had gotten clean away with what he had done.  How wrong this animal was!
Starryian..

Offline Angelo222

Re: Jeremy Bamber - The Tragedy of little Nicolas and Daniel.
« Reply #8 on: June 21, 2012, 02:12:12 PM »
Yes very good point David,
I think Sheila was thankfully spared the sight on what Bamber did to her little boys. What transpired between Bamber and Sheila that night only Bamber truly knows. I believe her got her out of her bedroom under some sort of ruse/threat about her children. I also believe that he threatened her by claiming that he would harm her boys if she did not comply and lie down in the position she was later found. I am almost certain of it. She did not know at this stage that her boys were probably already dead. Sheila almost certainly would have seen the dead body of June lying on the floor outside the master bedroom where she was later found. It is highly probable that Bamber showed Sheila June's body in an attempt to back up his threat of what would happen to her boys if she failed to comply.
It must have been a heartrending scene of a mother desparately trying to save the lives of her beloved boys.
This evil, psychopathic monster probably thought he had gotten clean away with what he had done.  How wrong this animal was!

Good reasoning Ian.  It is very noticeable that those who support Jeremy Bamber avoid this issue like the plague.  They cannot bring themselves to even consider such a scenario, they are blinded by bitterness.

I have thought long and hard as to why Sheila was so compliant with her attacker and I feel your post goes a long way to explaining this.  Sheila may not have been the perfect parent because of her own insecurities but she doted on those boys.  She was hoping for a reconciliation with Colin, something he too talked about after the murders.  Do you think that Jeremy Bamber had visions of Colin Caffell becoming Lord and Master at White House Farm instead of him and Julie?
« Last Edit: June 21, 2012, 02:16:20 PM by David »
De troothe has the annoying habit of coming to the surface just when you least expect it!!

Je ne regrette rien!!

ludwig

  • Guest
Re: Jeremy Bamber - The Tragedy of little Nicolas and Daniel.
« Reply #9 on: June 21, 2012, 02:36:41 PM »
Yes, this is true. In Colin's book he mentions that Nevill would talk to him about farming in an attempt to interest him in it. That would have been when Colin and Sheila were still together, leaving no doubt that he saw Colin as an alternative heir.

I think that this combined with Bamber's own admission that his parents discussed Sheila living in his cottage meant that he could see his position in the family being threatened. Also it is a good indication of how little Neville trusted Jeremy.



Yes very good point David,
I think Sheila was thankfully spared the sight on what Bamber did to her little boys. What transpired between Bamber and Sheila that night only Bamber truly knows. I believe her got her out of her bedroom under some sort of ruse/threat about her children. I also believe that he threatened her by claiming that he would harm her boys if she did not comply and lie down in the position she was later found. I am almost certain of it. She did not know at this stage that her boys were probably already dead. Sheila almost certainly would have seen the dead body of June lying on the floor outside the master bedroom where she was later found. It is highly probable that Bamber showed Sheila June's body in an attempt to back up his threat of what would happen to her boys if she failed to comply.
It must have been a heartrending scene of a mother desparately trying to save the lives of her beloved boys.
This evil, psychopathic monster probably thought he had gotten clean away with what he had done.  How wrong this animal was!

Good reasoning Ian.  It is very noticeable that those who support Jeremy Bamber avoid this issue like the plague.  They cannot bring themselves to even consider such a scenario, they are blinded by bitterness.

I have thought long and hard as to why Sheila was so compliant with her attacker and I feel your post goes a long way to explaining this.  Sheila may not have been the perfect parent because of her own insecurities but she doted on those boys.  She was hoping for a reconciliation with Colin, something he too talked about after the murders.  Do you think that Jeremy Bamber had visions of Colin Caffell becoming Lord and Master at White House Farm instead of him and Julie?

Offline ActualMat

Re: Jeremy Bamber - The Tragedy of little Nicolas and Daniel.
« Reply #10 on: June 21, 2012, 02:55:36 PM »
Yes very good point David,
I think Sheila was thankfully spared the sight on what Bamber did to her little boys. What transpired between Bamber and Sheila that night only Bamber truly knows. I believe her got her out of her bedroom under some sort of ruse/threat about her children. I also believe that he threatened her by claiming that he would harm her boys if she did not comply and lie down in the position she was later found. I am almost certain of it. She did not know at this stage that her boys were probably already dead. Sheila almost certainly would have seen the dead body of June lying on the floor outside the master bedroom where she was later found. It is highly probable that Bamber showed Sheila June's body in an attempt to back up his threat of what would happen to her boys if she failed to comply.
It must have been a heartrending scene of a mother desparately trying to save the lives of her beloved boys.
This evil, psychopathic monster probably thought he had gotten clean away with what he had done.  How wrong this animal was!



Exactly! I posted something along those lines on the other forum just a couple of days ago.

Offline Joanne

Re: Jeremy Bamber - The Tragedy of little Nicolas and Daniel.
« Reply #11 on: June 21, 2012, 03:07:51 PM »
I wonder in what order they were shot, I mean it from the point of view that it would give me nightmares if the little boys saw any of this as it would if Sheila had to watch her children being shot. There was a case some years ago about Anil Chohan and his family whose murders were organised by Regan (they were drowned) and Onka Verman, the brother of Anil Chohan's wife said that's what upset him the most, wondering who had watched who die.

only me

  • Guest
Re: Jeremy Bamber - The Tragedy of little Nicolas and Daniel.
« Reply #12 on: June 21, 2012, 03:36:14 PM »
I actually really believe that the boys were killed first, partly because they were the only people not disturbed or out of their beds.

I don't think it would have been hard to subdue Sheila.  Most people, when confronted with a gun, will do exactly what they are told. 

Offline abs

Re: Jeremy Bamber - The Tragedy of little Nicolas and Daniel.
« Reply #13 on: June 21, 2012, 03:55:38 PM »
Why would JB stage a suicide in June and Ralph´s bedroom and not in Sheila´s own? Something I have always wondered about.

Just had a horrible thought. Putting your thumb into your mouth could be a self-soothing mechanism. It isn´t a given that both twins did not wake up.

Offline starryian

Re: Jeremy Bamber - The Tragedy of little Nicolas and Daniel.
« Reply #14 on: June 21, 2012, 04:05:51 PM »
I actually really believe that the boys were killed first, partly because they were the only people not disturbed or out of their beds.

I don't think it would have been hard to subdue Sheila.  Most people, when confronted with a gun, will do exactly what they are told.
I can really agree with you there. I think the twins were shot next to last. Bamber would have had to walk past Nevil and June's bedroom, which by all accounts had the door open. Bamber would have been only too aware just what a light sleeper June was. Moreover, the logical move would have been to eliminate the greatest threat to your plan first - Nevil.
 Your point about people doing exactly what they are told when confroned with a gun is a good one. However, we are dealing here with a mother who would have given her life for her twins in order to protect them. She would not have complied if she thought the twins were in any way going to be harmed. Bamber knew this only too well. Just what he told her will probably forever remain a mystery.
The twins were fast asleep as Bamber pumped silenced bullets into Nevil and June. The noise would have been minimal. However, this is pure guesswork as the only person who really knows what occurred that horrible night is quite rightly locked away for the rest of his miserable life.
Starryian..