PJ request for Gerald McCann's bank statements was an issue?

[AnneGuedes]

It seems SY wants access to bank accounts. Strangely enough since the LC refused PJ's access to the McCanns' accounts.
The LORs are a normal way to proceed among countries linked by judiciary assistance. I don't understand why BHH said that's the way their system works.
The trial is suspended by the still unresolved ward of court issue.
Both parties dismissed witnesses.

[Carana]

It seems SY wants access to bank accounts. Strangely enough since the LC refused PJ's access to the McCanns' accounts.
The LORs are a normal way to proceed among countries linked by judiciary assistance. I don't understand why BHH said that's the way their system works.
The trial is suspended by the still unresolved ward of court issue.
Both parties dismissed witnesses.

I'm not aware that LP refused to provide access to their bank accounts.

It was the UK Central Authority who had asked for clarification in the interest of proportionality as to why 6 months' worth of statements were needed if the issue was the alleged sighting of Gerry making a phone call on a particular day - which turned out not to be him anyway. The clarification wasn't given, and the request was dropped.

17-Vol 17 Page 4485 (Page 1 of 1)
17_VOLUME_XVIIa_Page_4485
Table of Contents : Processo Vol 17...(PDF page 72)....Page "4485 to 4486? "Home Office Letter (English)"

(Note : This letter consists of only 1 Page)

Home Office
Crime Reduction and Community Safety Group
Policing Police and Operations Directorate,
Judicial Co-operation Unit,
5th Floor, Fry Building, 2 Marsham Street, London, SW1P 4DF

Our Ref : MLI08/210/2104
Your Ref : No 2640/2008
Date : 16th June 2008

Ms Joana Gomes Ferreira
Procuradoria-Geral Da Republica
Rue da Escola
No 140 1269-269
LISBOA
PORTUGAL

Dear Ms Ferreira

Request for mutual legal assistance relating to the disappearance of Madeleine McCann


I am writing further to my letter dated 5th March 2008 and your letters dated 14th and 27th March concerning your request for banking evidence relating to Gerald McCann.

In my letter dated 5th March 2008, I asked for clarification of the basis upon which you made the request for access to transaction Mr McCann's Mastercard credit card accounts for a 6 month period. In your letter dated 14th March 2008 you explained that the reason for the request was to enable the investigation team to identify if there were any unknown motives behind the disappearance of Madeleine or identify any individual or individuals responsible for her disappearance. I remain concerned about the basis upon which you seek evidence relating to 6 months transactions, beginning 1st April 2007 (6 weeks prior to Madeleine's disappearance).

When officers from Leicestershire Constabulary met with the Portuguese case team they were informed that the request for banking evidence arose as a result of a reported sighting of Mr McCann at a cash machine whilst talking on a mobile telephone, following Madeleine's disappearance. The Portuguese team were therefore concerned to ascertain whether the cash machine transaction and the call were related and whether they linked to Madeleine's disappearance.

As you know, in considering requests for coercive measures the Secretary of State must consider necessity and proportionality. On the basis of the information before me, the request for evidence relating to Mr McCann's Mastercard accounts for a 6 month period or, at least in the first instance, refine your request to a period immediately prior to and following the day of the alleged sighting, I would be more than happy to look at this part of the request again.

In the meantime, 4 tranches of evidence were sent to you via DHL on 9th, 16th, 23rd and 28th may 2008 and I would be grateful if you could confirm receipt.

I look forward to hearing from you

Yours sincerely

FR Kennah
Frances Kennah
Head, UK Central Authority

Not everyone listening to the show would be aware of ILoRs. People followng the Alps murder case would be aware that a Joint Investigation Team had been established early on between the UK and France and might assume that that would be the case in this investigation.

[AnneGuedes]

I'm not aware that LP refused to provide access to their bank accounts.

It was the UK Central Authority who had asked for clarification in the interest of proportionality as to why 6 months' worth of statements were needed if the issue was the alleged sighting of Gerry making a phone call on a particular day - which turned out not to be him anyway. The clarification wasn't given, and the request was dropped.

17-Vol 17 Page 4485 (Page 1 of 1)
17_VOLUME_XVIIa_Page_4485
Table of Contents : Processo Vol 17...(PDF page 72)....Page "4485 to 4486? "Home Office Letter (English)"

(Note : This letter consists of only 1 Page)

Home Office
Crime Reduction and Community Safety Group
Policing Police and Operations Directorate,
Judicial Co-operation Unit,
5th Floor, Fry Building, 2 Marsham Street, London, SW1P 4DF

Our Ref : MLI08/210/2104
Your Ref : No 2640/2008
Date : 16th June 2008

Ms Joana Gomes Ferreira
Procuradoria-Geral Da Republica
Rue da Escola
No 140 1269-269
LISBOA
PORTUGAL

Dear Ms Ferreira

Request for mutual legal assistance relating to the disappearance of Madeleine McCann


I am writing further to my letter dated 5th March 2008 and your letters dated 14th and 27th March concerning your request for banking evidence relating to Gerald McCann.

In my letter dated 5th March 2008, I asked for clarification of the basis upon which you made the request for access to transaction Mr McCann's Mastercard credit card accounts for a 6 month period. In your letter dated 14th March 2008 you explained that the reason for the request was to enable the investigation team to identify if there were any unknown motives behind the disappearance of Madeleine or identify any individual or individuals responsible for her disappearance. I remain concerned about the basis upon which you seek evidence relating to 6 months transactions, beginning 1st April 2007 (6 weeks prior to Madeleine's disappearance).

When officers from Leicestershire Constabulary met with the Portuguese case team they were informed that the request for banking evidence arose as a result of a reported sighting of Mr McCann at a cash machine whilst talking on a mobile telephone, following Madeleine's disappearance. The Portuguese team were therefore concerned to ascertain whether the cash machine transaction and the call were related and whether they linked to Madeleine's disappearance.

As you know, in considering requests for coercive measures the Secretary of State must consider necessity and proportionality. On the basis of the information before me, the request for evidence relating to Mr McCann's Mastercard accounts for a 6 month period or, at least in the first instance, refine your request to a period immediately prior to and following the day of the alleged sighting, I would be more than happy to look at this part of the request again.

In the meantime, 4 tranches of evidence were sent to you via DHL on 9th, 16th, 23rd and 28th may 2008 and I would be grateful if you could confirm receipt.

I look forward to hearing from you

Yours sincerely

FR Kennah
Frances Kennah
Head, UK Central Authority

Not everyone listening to the show would be aware of ILoRs. People followng the Alps murder case would be aware that a Joint Investigation Team had been established early on between the UK and France and might assume that that would be the case in this investigation.

If you call that granting an access to accounts, I'm not surprised by BHH's suggestion about "the Portuguese ways".

[Carana]

If you call that granting an access to accounts, I'm not surprised by BHH's suggestion about "the Portuguese ways".

He seems to have simply been clarifying the procedure. In the absence of a JIT, ILoRs would be the usual route. I don't see anything odd in what he said.

You were saying that LP had "refused access" which doesn't appear to be the case.

[AnneGuedes]

He seems to have simply been clarifying the procedure. In the absence of a JIT, ILoRs would be the usual route. I don't see anything odd in what he said.

You were saying that LP had "refused access" which doesn't appear to be the case.

He doesn't sound like clarifying anything. There was a JIT but, when the McCanns were made arguidos, the British officers had to go back home too (without the British Officers, however, I doubt that Eddie had travelled to PDL at all).
Rogatory Letters are required by the Judiciary Assistance System, talking of "Portuguese ways" instead of "European" ways is misleading. I bet every layman will have understood that Portuguese ways are special and that xenophobia will gain points.

Are you attempting to say that access to the bank accounts was granted as it would have been to a British police team, without restriction ?
Are you aware that this is not the only letter on that topic ?

[Angelo222]

If you call that granting an access to accounts, I'm not surprised by BHH's suggestion about "the Portuguese ways".

That is a most typical example of obstruction in a potential murder inquiry.  Why didn't the British just provide the information sought by the Portuguese police instead of acting like a bunch of obstructing b.......s?

[Redblossom]

That is a most typical example of obstruction in a potential murder inquiry.  Why didn't the British just provide the information sought by the Portuguese police instead of acting like a bunch of obstructing b.......s?

If this happened in the UK the police would have automatic access to all phone and bank records, no questions asked!

The British authorities sent them some credit agency check instead which meant sod all

Also the medical records for Madeleine were not sent

[Mr Gray]

If this happened in the UK the police would have automatic access to all phone and bank records, no questions asked!

The British authorities sent them some credit agency check instead which meant sod all

Also the medical records for Madeleine were not sent

I'm fairly sure you are not right. there are strict laws in the uk..data protection etc that means that if an organisation gives out information it has to observe strict guidelines otherwise it can face legal action . Often this means information can only be released with a court order.

[Mr Gray]

If this happened in the UK the police would have automatic access to all phone and bank records, no questions asked!

The British authorities sent them some credit agency check instead which meant sod all

Also the medical records for Madeleine were not sent

Medical records are especially protected...do you think the police can simply request your medical records...they can't

[Carana]

If you call that granting an access to accounts, I'm not surprised by BHH's suggestion about "the Portuguese ways".

I don't see what you find strange. You even highlighted this point:

As you know, in considering requests for coercive measures the Secretary of State must consider necessity and proportionality.

Despite the broad request, there was no justification offered for the extent of data requested, hence the request for clarification, to which there doesn't appear to be a response.

[Carana]

He doesn't sound like clarifying anything. There was a JIT but, when the McCanns were made arguidos, the British officers had to go back home too (without the British Officers, however, I doubt that Eddie had travelled to PDL at all).
Rogatory Letters are required by the Judiciary Assistance System, talking of "Portuguese ways" instead of "European" ways is misleading. I bet every layman will have understood that Portuguese ways are special and that xenophobia will gain points.

Are you attempting to say that access to the bank accounts was granted as it would have been to a British police team, without restriction ?
Are you aware that this is not the only letter on that topic ?

- Was there ever an official JIT agreement? Possibly, but I'm not aware of the conditions of cooperation in 2007.

- I don't understand your point about bank accounts.

[Carana]

If this happened in the UK the police would have automatic access to all phone and bank records, no questions asked!

The British authorities sent them some credit agency check instead which meant sod all

Also the medical records for Madeleine were not sent

What rogs were actually sent to ask for phone and bank records, and what was the content of the correspondence?

[Carana]

That is a most typical example of obstruction in a potential murder inquiry.  Why didn't the British just provide the information sought by the Portuguese police instead of acting like a bunch of obstructing b.......s?

The UK Central Authority seems to be the overseeing body to analyse and respond to such requests for information from a foreign body (quite possibly a court order would be required even within the UK). It appears that there needs to be some justification in order to authorise coercive measures to obtain and transfer private data.

Do you find that strange?

[Redblossom]

What rogs were actually sent to ask for phone and bank records, and what was the content of the correspondence?

look in the files and read for a change! Its called donkey work and I think you should do your own instead of incessantly farmng it out to others

[Redblossom]

I'm fairly sure you are not right. there are strict laws in the uk..data protection etc that means that if an organisation gives out information it has to observe strict guidelines otherwise it can face legal action . Often this means information can only be released with a court order.

Come off it, in a child abduction/possible murder case those protocols go out the window or are worked around

And so they should