Tavares Report wrongly claims EVRD Eddie alerted within the boot of the hire car

[Benice]

So what do you think Grime's explanation would be for the fact that Eddie failed to alert to the same clothing in the villa which he later allegedly alerted to in the Gym?

IMO the only explanation he could give  - (if his dogs were as skilfull as he claimed) - is that 'contamination' must have occurred after the clothing had been removed from the villa and before it was laid out in the Gym.

After all - he does make it clear in his statements that cross contamination can happen.

Can you think of any other reason why his dog missed all those articles of clothing whilst they were in the villa?

[pegasus]

... Can you think of any other reason why his dog missed all those articles of clothing whilst they were in the villa?

The clothing items signalled later in the gym ALL came from the box labelled living area.
You cannot plausibly claim to understand the clothes in the living area if you cannot locate them in the video of the living area.

[Benice]

The clothing items signalled later in the gym ALL came from the box labelled living area.
You cannot plausibly claim to understand the clothes in the living area if you cannot locate them in the video of the living area.

Don't you find it strange that the only clothes alerted to all just happened to come from the same box?    What are the chances of that happening by sheer coincidence?

And what difference does it make where they were in the villa?  With Eddie's abilities sniffing them out in such a confined area should have been a walk in the park for him.    But he missed them all - unless the truth is there was nothing for him to miss in the first place.

[Redblossom]

So what do you think Grime's explanation would be for the fact that Eddie failed to alert to the same clothing in the villa which he later allegedly alerted to in the Gym?

IMO the only explanation he could give  - (if his dogs were as skilfull as he claimed) - is that 'contamination' must have occurred after the clothing had been removed from the villa and before it was laid out in the Gym.

After all - he does make it clear in his statements that cross contamination can happen.

Can you think of any other reason why his dog missed all those articles of clothing whilst they were in the villa?

The packer/unpacker obviously had just come back from thr local morgue where he touched a load of dead bodies and passed the scent on through his rubber gloves

[Mr Gray]

The packer/unpacker obviously had just come back from thr local morgue where he touched a load of dead bodies and passed the scent on through his rubber gloves

That is exactly how cross contamination...which Grime refers to...happens

[ferryman]

So what do you think Grime's explanation would be for the fact that Eddie failed to alert to the same clothing in the villa which he later allegedly alerted to in the Gym?

IMO the only explanation he could give  - (if his dogs were as skilfull as he claimed) - is that 'contamination' must have occurred after the clothing had been removed from the villa and before it was laid out in the Gym.

After all - he [Grime] does make it clear in his statements that cross contamination can happen.

Can you think of any other reason why his dog missed all those articles of clothing whilst they were in the villa?

Grime also states that "EVRD" does not alert falsely.

A controversial claim (in my opinion)

I would also re-cast Benice's statement slightly more strongly.  Asked about cross-contamination, Grime replied that cross-contamination is immediate.

He might have added (but didn't) that it is also inevitable.

For example, the German carpet squares study was driven by the principle of cross-contamination. 

Every carpet square without exception passed close to, but not touching, the buttock of each dead man, was cross-contaminated with a death scent, transmitted through a cotton blanket wrapping the body of each dead man intended to simulate a thin layer of clothing.

[Redblossom]

Grime also states that "EVRD" does not alert falsely.

A controversial claim (in my opinion)

I would also re-cast Benice's statement slightly more strongly.  Asked about cross-contamination, Grime replied that cross-contamination is immediate.

He might have added (but didn't) that it is also inevitable.

For example, the German carpet squares study was driven by the principle of cross-contamination. 

Every carpet square without exception passed close to, but not touching, the buttock of each dead man, was cross-contaminated with a death scent, transmitted through a cotton blanket wrapping the body of each dead man intended to simulate a thin layer of clothing.

Twisting facts and peoples words again? Sigh, its all you ever do, I do wonder what your  motivation for doing so is though


 >@@(*&)

[Serendipity]

I must say having read through the posts that I agree with Dave in that a failed identification is seldom recorded.  One classic failure to detect the scent of death however was in the Adrian Prout case where the dogs were brought in but failed to identify the burial site even when taken to the very spot.  The dogs weren't infallible by any means but merely a means to an end. 

Martin Grime couldn't state that Eddie alerted to cadaver scent at the McCann's hire car, to Kate's clothing, the shelf in the bedroom wardrobe or to cuddlecat because as he stated himself on many occasions, the dog alerts are 'meaningless' without forensic corroboration.  Since that corroboration did not materialise in the Madeleine investigation we are left with dog alerts which are for all intents and purposes, meaningless.

The dogs did not fail to find Kate Prouts body.  They would never have found her body no matter how many times they were taken there.  Why is that?  It's because she was wrapped in carpet and then wrapped in plastic sheeting..... which is an impermeable membrane. 

"Detective inspector Steve Bean of Gloucestershire Police told the inquest that Prout confessed to wrapping the body in a carpet and plastic sheeting and putting it in his Range Rover."

http://www.worcesternews.co.uk/news/9687871.print/

How do you think test materials are transported for testing cadaver dogs?  In non permeable containers or they would be alerting all over the place whilst in transit.

Dogs are trained not to scent impermeable membranes.   When providing training samples for dogs such odours have to be contained, in gas impermeable containers. This has presented problems in that trainee dogs might begin to identify the scent of container (neoprene, plastic type etc) so they are now deconditioned to alert to such.

By the same token an EVRD  which responds to human trace odours only will not identify odour of impermeable membrane around a body So, with right 'wrapping' or containment, dogs can miss cadaver as not trained to scent impermeable membrane.

Eddie alerted in the living room at the Prout house and he was proven correct when Prout eventually confessed to murdering his wife.

Given the dogs training regarding not scenting to impermeables and that Eddie alerted in the living room  to where Kate's body had lain, I do not consider that to be a fail by Eddie by any stretch of the imagination.

[colombosstogey]

The dogs did not fail to find Kate Prouts body.  They would never have found her body no matter how many times they were taken there.  Why is that?  It's because she was wrapped in carpet and then wrapped in plastic sheeting..... which is an impermeable membrane. 

"Detective inspector Steve Bean of Gloucestershire Police told the inquest that Prout confessed to wrapping the body in a carpet and plastic sheeting and putting it in his Range Rover."

http://www.worcesternews.co.uk/news/9687871.print/

How do you think test materials are transported for testing cadaver dogs?  In non permeable containers or they would be alerting all over the place whilst in transit.

Dogs are trained not to scent impermeable membranes.   When providing training samples for dogs such odours have to be contained, in gas impermeable containers. This has presented problems in that trainee dogs might begin to identify the scent of container (neoprene, plastic type etc) so they are now deconditioned to alert to such.

By the same token an EVRD  which responds to human trace odours only will not identify odour of impermeable membrane around a body So, with right 'wrapping' or containment, dogs can miss cadaver as not trained to scent impermeable membrane.

Eddie alerted in the living room at the Prout house and he was proven correct when Prout eventually confessed to murdering his wife.

Given the dogs training regarding not scenting to impermeables and that Eddie alerted in the living room  to where Kate's body had lain, I do not consider that to be a fail by Eddie by any stretch of the imagination.

EXACTLY. I know the case well it happened not far from me. Like you said the body was wrapped in thick plastic sheeting.

[Serendipity]

EXACTLY. I know the case well it happened not far from me. Like you said the body was wrapped in thick plastic sheeting.

Yes a very sad case, I really wish people would do some research before coming to inaccurate conclusions regarding the dogs.

[Redblossom]

Yes a very sad case, I really wish people would do some research before coming to inaccurate conclusions regarding the dogs.

some people cant bear the thought that eddie may have alerted to remnant scent of a  dead body in 5a, its very irrational IMO to rule that out and no basis whatsoever to do so either

Ps all the coconuts have been deleted i see


 

[Serendipity]

some people cant bear the thought that eddie may have alerted to a dead body in 5a, its very irrational IMO to rule that out

Ps all the coconuts have been deleted i see


 

Amongst other stuff which blew the 'meaningless without corroboration' line out of the water but hey ho it seems we are not allowed to mention that

[pegasus]

Don't you find it strange that the only clothes alerted to all just happened to come from the same box?    What are the chances of that happening by sheer coincidence?

And what difference does it make where they were in the villa?  With Eddie's abilities sniffing them out in such a confined area should have been a walk in the park for him.    But he missed them all - unless the truth is there was nothing for him to miss in the first place.

Yes the question why were all signalled clothes from same box is interesting.
But back to the video of the living area, the challenge is, to look through that video and find the clothes.

[Estuarine]

I love all this "woofer" stuff it is better than watching the telly. This "dogging" [yes I know and it was quite deliberate] debate will be going on long after the case has closed. There remains an unasked question in this debate; I'll buy a pint for the first person to correctly identify the question. Mean time I'll take me woofer out for a walk 

[John]

some people cant bear the thought that eddie may have alerted to remnant scent of a  dead body in 5a, its very irrational IMO to rule that out and no basis whatsoever to do so either

Ps all the coconuts have been deleted i see


 

Not quite...

The EVRD and the coconut revisited by popular demand.