Tavares Report wrongly claims EVRD Eddie alerted within the boot of the hire car

[ferryman]

It's OK for some.  I wasn't a member when this was active so the site tracking mechanism told me I was 20 pages behind.

Let me try a one-line summary of those 20 pages.  Tavares wasn't sure whether these were miracle dogs or not.

And 9 years on, the argument debate continues.

I'll bow to that diplomatic construction that befits your status as a moderator.

[Robittybob1]

And Keela only marks for blood ... NOT cadaver

All you doubters are barking up the wrong tree.   You have listened to Amaral too long.  Try thinking it thru.

NO CADAVER indications in the boot.  NONE

I took it to mean the cadaver dog doesn't have to go into a car to indicate in the boot. They just need to smell the air coming from the bottom of the door seal.  The dog might not have gone into the car but it still indicated in the boot.  That makes perfect sense to me.

[sadie]

I took it to mean the cadaver dog doesn't have to go into a car to indicate in the boot. They just need to smell the air coming from the bottom of the door seal.  The dog might not have gone into the car but it still indicated on the boot.  That makes perfect sense to me.

Oh, please dont tell me that I have to go thru all the door seal stuff again !

In a nutshell Robitty.

1)  Modern cars can go thru floods and dreadful storms ... and not a drop of water gets in thru the door seals.

2)  Anyway Keela alerted in the car, so there was blood there.  Gerrys key ring had blood on it. 
Eddie alerts to blood as well as Cadavar odour.  If by any chance (which I find difficult to believe) Eddie alerted to something coming from the car, then the likelyhood is that it is the scent of blood.


Therefore *If*  Eddie alerted to something coming from the car, it means nothing ... Zilch ... nada ... nowt

[misty]

I took it to mean the cadaver dog doesn't have to go into a car to indicate in the boot. They just need to smell the air coming from the bottom of the door seal.  The dog might not have gone into the car but it still indicated on the boot.  That makes perfect sense to me.

Oh goody - you're a scientist, aren't you? Can you explain why odour would only permeate the one door seal before being effused some considerable distance into the car park where the Scenic was located? Strangely, the seal of the car boot, near which the "blood" Keela alerted to, produced no reaction from Eddie.
I would really appreciate your help to understand the scientific process which caused this.

[Robittybob1]

Oh goody - you're a scientist, aren't you? Can you explain why odour would only permeate the one door seal before being effused some considerable distance into the car park where the Scenic was located? Strangely, the seal of the car boot, near which the "blood" Keela alerted to, produced no reaction from Eddie.
I would really appreciate your help to understand the scientific process which caused this.

I'm a scientist but this is not my field of expertise.  I have an interest in dogs and we did discuss sense of smell on other science forums. 
You ask "Can you explain why odour would only permeate the one door seal before being effused some considerable distance into the car park where the Scenic was located?"  That is a hard question and it will be due to very fine air movements.
I would say the odour once considerably past the door seal is just wafted in the breeze.  So it won't be on the ground where the car parked.   I think saw Eddie's quite close to the seal.  I'm not sure of the exact situation that you are referring to in particular.

You ask "the seal of the car boot, near which the "blood" Keela alerted to, produced no reaction from Eddie."  there are many reason there could be blood there, and if it didn't come from "the body in the boot" it may have just been from a fresh cut.  Anyone's guess or excuse will do to explain the blood, but it didn't come from a decomposing cadaver.

[misty]

I'm a scientist but this is not my field of expertise.  I have an interest in dogs and we did discuss sense of smell on other science forums. 
You ask "Can you explain why odour would only permeate the one door seal before being effused some considerable distance into the car park where the Scenic was located?"  That is a hard question and it will be due to very fine air movements.
I would say the odour once considerably past the door seal is just wafted in the breeze.  So it won't be on the ground where the car parked.   I think saw Eddie's quite close to the seal.  I'm not sure of the exact situation that you are referring to in particular.

You ask "the seal of the car boot, near which the "blood" Keela alerted to, produced no reaction from Eddie."  there are many reason there could be blood there, and if it didn't come from "the body in the boot" it may have just been from a fresh cut.  Anyone's guess or excuse will do to explain the blood, but it didn't come from a decomposing cadaver.

OK, thanks for responding anyway. I will remain in ignorance until our resident expert decides to offer a proper explanation, although I'm not going to hold my breath.

[John]

Asking a forensics dog to sniff the outside/underside of a car was akin to taking Keila into an abattoir and looking for a dead cow.  A total and unmitigated waste of time imo.

Something which has always puzzled me however is why did Mr Grime not put Eddie into the hire car?

[Robittybob1]

OK, thanks for responding anyway. I will remain in ignorance until our resident expert decides to offer a proper explanation, although I'm not going to hold my breath.

Who is the "resident expert" around here?

[pathfinder73]

Asking a forensics dog to sniff the outside/underside of a car was akin to taking Keila into an abattoir and looking for a dead cow.  A total and unmitigated waste of time imo.

Something which has always puzzled me however is why did Mr Grime not put Eddie into the hire car?

I would have also put Eddie in the car because he found the DNA evidence that nailed the murderer in the Attracta Harron case and that was a burnt out shell - forensics found nothing until Eddie entered the car and went to work.

[ShiningInLuz]

I have no certain idea of the number of times Eddie alerting at the driver's door has been discussed, but I'm pretty sure the debate covers multiple threads.

If that seal on the Scenic was not 100% impermeable, e.g. due to damage, then it could explain Eddie's alert coupled with non-alerts to other cars and non-alert to the boot.

This does not get me past the blindingly simple idea that if a working door seal stops cadaver odour then all the vehicles should have had doors and/or boots opened.

This is another part of the dog 'evidence' that simply does not move me.

If Eddie was not deployed inside the Scenic, as appears to be the case, I would be quizzing Mr Grime as to why not.  I can speculate on reasons but since I am not a qualified dog handler, I don't think my musings would move us forward.

[pathfinder73]

Scent was escaping from the driver's door where he alerted. The source of the scent he was alerting to could be anywhere inside the vehicle.

"This then produced an alert indication at the lower part of the drivers door where the dog was biting and barking. I recognise this behaviour as the dog indicating scent emitting from the inside of the vehicle through the seal around the door." Martin Grime

[ferryman]

Scent was escaping from the driver's door where he alerted. The source of the scent he was alerting to could be anywhere inside the vehicle.

"This then produced an alert indication at the lower part of the drivers door where the dog was biting and barking. I recognise this behaviour as the dog indicating scent emitting from the inside of the vehicle through the seal around the door." Martin Grime

The key fob (to which Eddie alerted) was taken out of the car, placed inside a sandbox and buried for Eddie to alert to a second time.

Eddie did so.

The key fob was sent to the FSS and found to contain Gerry's DNA.

(Surprise, surprise, Gerry drove the car).

[sadie]

The key fob (to which Eddie alerted) was taken out of the car, placed inside a sandbox and buried for Eddie to alert to a second time.

Eddie did so.

The key fob was sent to the FSS and found to contain Gerry's DNA.

(Surprise, surprise, Gerry drove the car).

So there you have it.  If Eddie alerted to a scent from the inside of the car then the seal must have been damaged

Anyway, Gerrys blood was on the key, so *IF* Eddie was alerting to that then it was blood = Gerrys.

With Keela having alerted in the boot, all she was saying was blood.  Eddie also alerts to blood, so *if* they BOTH alerted it does NOT mean cadavar.

In other words, *If* the door seal was damaged and scent escaped it does NOT mean Cadavar ... it just means BLOOD.


TBH, I did not like the way that Eddies nose seemed to be going ... not around the very edge of the seal, but an inch or so from the seal.   I hope that I am remembering this correctly.  mercury please correct me if I am wrong *&*%£


There are many causes for blood, from cuts and scrazes, to mozzy bites, to menstration, etc

[pathfinder73]

No it doesn't have to be blood because there could be blood in other vehicles. It could have been cadaver scent which he was trained to find i.e. the enhanced meaning.

[ferryman]

I would have also put Eddie in the car because he found the DNA evidence that nailed the murderer in the Attracta Harron case and that was a burnt out shell - forensics found nothing until Eddie entered the car and went to work.

Eddie might have been on better form in the Attracta Harron case (or even better handled, who knows?)

It remains a (perhaps not so abiding) 'mystery' that, in PdL. Eddie could find no hint of a scent on exactly the same clothing he examined (first) in the hired villa; then (miraculously) could (exactly the same clothing) in the gym.

And who to blame for the fact that both dogs (Eddie and Keela) trampled all over stuff they were tasked to inspect in the gym; and one dog (Eddie) picked stuff up in his mouth.

I know who I blame.

Not (either) dog ....