Was Mr Smiths claim just pie in the sky after all?

[sadie]

Mrs Smith felt the need to ask 'oh, is she asleep?'.
So there was obviously some doubt in her mind over the issue.

Excellent point why would she say that "Is she asleep?" Spooky!

What statement did you get that from?  Didn't know Mrs Smith had given a statement.

[Cariad]

What statement did you get that from?  Didn't know Mrs Smith had given a statement.

Well that STINKS! It was probably suppressed by those nasty foreigners!

Don't worry, I'll report myself.

[pathfinder73]

What statement did you get that from?  Didn't know Mrs Smith had given a statement.

Mary Smith didn't travel to PDL to give a statement. Hopefully she has given one by now.

Martin Smith said: "The one thing we noted afterwards was that he gave us no greeting. My wife Mary remembered afterwards that she asked him: 'Oh, is she asleep?' But he never acknowledged her one way or another. He just put his head down and averted his eyes. This is very unusual in a tourist town at such a quiet time of the year."

Maddie: Irishman provides dramatic new clues, 03 January 2008

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id162.html

[Sherlock Holmes]

'Is she asleep' really means asleep as opposed to awake, though, doesn't it?

When we ask if someone is asleep, we are not trying to find out if they are really dead.

[Carana]

Mary Smith didn't travel to PDL to give a statement. Hopefully she has given one by now.

Martin Smith said: "The one thing we noted afterwards was that he gave us no greeting. My wife Mary remembered afterwards that she asked him: 'Oh, is she asleep?' But he never acknowledged her one way or another. He just put his head down and averted his eyes. This is very unusual in a tourist town at such a quiet time of the year."

Maddie: Irishman provides dramatic new clues, 03 January 2008

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id162.html

I wonder how accurate that quote is. What would be the point of asking someone whether their child was asleep... as opposed to what? She might have noticed a sleeping child without actually verbalising it. None of the statements mention her saying this. Even if she had in passing, if the person didn't understand English (or the accent), he might not have realised in the general family banter that he was being asked a question. If this person did have Madeleine, there would be a reason to hurry on past whether he understood or not.

[pathfinder73]

'Is she asleep' really means asleep as opposed to awake, though, doesn't it?

When we ask if someone is asleep, we are not trying to find out if they are really dead.

She knew the child looked asleep but something triggered that made it look strange and not normal IMO. She wouldn't ask oh is she asleep if she knew she was awake - it's not like she wanted to take a closer look at the child in the dark. I think it's more "is she alright?" subconsciously.

[Sherlock Holmes]

Sherlock, I think you read Sadies theory?  If so you will know that I believe a car was coming to pick Tannermann and Madeleine up,
...but that it was frustrated because of two things
1.  Gerry and Jez chatting on the edge of the pavement at the corner of the alleyway.  Where the car had to pass and also within sight, all-be-it at a distance from Gerry, of Tannerman/ bundleman
2.  Jane Tanner actually witnessing the abduction.  No way would the driver go up there and risk a pick up.  If fact I think he wet his pants and buzzed off leaving Tannerman in the lurch.

I dont think it was a choice to carry Madeleine thru the streets; I think it became a necessity

I do remember this, Sadie, quite well. We conversed at length about it not long after I came on the forum.

It is my belief however that in the case of their being a car in an initial plan  and that plan going wrong, walking through the middle of the town with the child would be an unlikely plan B. She would still have to be concealed and I would have thought that going to one of the secluded areas or into a nearby apartment that could have been being used as a base / vantage point would have been a more sensible option over walking through the middle of the town and traversing that road with all the bars and restaurants.

[Wonderfulspam]

I wonder how accurate that quote is. What would be the point of asking someone whether their child was asleep... as opposed to what? She might have noticed a sleeping child without actually verbalising it. None of the statements mention her saying this. Even if she had in passing, if the person didn't understand English (or the accent), he might not have realised in the general family banter that he was being asked a question. If this person did have Madeleine, there would be a reason to hurry on past whether he understood or not.

Yes, and if that person did have Madeleine he either changed her jammies or the McCanns have been less than totally honest about the night clothes she was wearing.

[Carana]

If the child being carried was dead, I keep coming back to the question of  ' Why carry her thru the streets of PdL openly '  ?

There were bags in the apartment.  If dead why not bundle her in one of them ?  Or even wrap her in his jacket out of sight?


The whole scenario of carrying a dead child openly thru the streets, just doesn't make sense


I believe that both Tannermans child and Smithmans child was alive.  Maybe the same child, maybe not.

I still think that there is a chance that she could be alive somewhere as there's simply no concrete evidence to suggest otherwise.

How she was taken out might depend on the state of mind of the person and the actual circumstances.

[Carana]

Yes, and if that person did have Madeleine he either changed her jammies or the McCanns have been less than totally honest about the night clothes she was wearing.

Not necessarily. Don't forget these are witnesses who were trying to remember details of someone who had simply passed by them as they were ambling back to their flat two weeks earlier. I would be hard pressed to remember details of who I'd passed even yesterday.

[Wonderfulspam]

Not necessarily. Don't forget these are witnesses who were trying to remember details of someone who had simply passed by them as they were ambling back to their flat two weeks earlier. I would be hard pressed to remember details of who I'd passed even yesterday.

Whatever.

[Cariad]

Sherlock, I think you read Sadies theory?  If so you will know that I believe a car was coming to pick Tannermann and Madeleine up,
...but that it was frustrated because of two things
1.  Gerry and Jez chatting on the edge of the pavement at the corner of the alleyway.  Where the car had to pass and also within sight, all-be-it at a distance from Gerry, of Tannerman/ bundleman
2.  Jane Tanner actually witnessing the abduction.  No way would the driver go up there and risk a pick up.  If fact I think he wet his pants and buzzed off leaving Tannerman in the lurch.

I dont think it was a choice to carry Madeleine thru the streets; I think it became a necessity

Tannerman is Innocentman according to sy. He has been identified and ruled out as the 'abductor'. SY are now concentrating on Smithman.

[sadie]

I do remember this, Sadie, quite well. We conversed at length about it not long after I came on the forum.

It is my belief however that in the case of their being a car in an initial plan  and that plan going wrong, walking through the middle of the town with the child would be an unlikely plan B. She would still have to be concealed and I would have thought that going to one of the secluded areas or into a nearby apartment that could have been being used as a base / vantage point would have been a more sensible option over walking through the middle of the town and traversing that road with all the bars and restaurants.

Gawd, Sherlock, when we were there mid summer 2010 it was so quiet.  Everyone seemed to go to bed at 9 pm-ish.  There are two routes that I can think of that involve virtually no road walking except for crossiing quickly.

The first involves doubling back thru the car parks of A block and the next block in a more westerly direction, then crossing the main road onto semi derelict land. 
The main road would have been almost as dead as a dodo at that time of night imo.  For its whole length, until the Staff quarters, that wasteland followed the Rua D'Escola, which is the road that the Smiths saw Smithman in .  Doubling back might have been a bit tricky.

The second and probably the more likely route is via the rabbits warren of alleyways.  There is one that goes in a southerly direction and has an off shoot alleyway going west from behind Fazackerleys villa, number 35, then across Rua Francisco GM right on to the Baptista car park. 
From there across another car park, cross the main road and onto yet another car park.  Travel across some wasteland which comes out near The Staff quarters and just up from where Martin Smith saw him.

Apart from crossing two almost deserted roads, it is all alleyways,  car parks and wasteland.  No-one to see him until he had the misfortune to bump into the Smiths

As for Madeleine being asleep, it seems likely that she was drugged initially with chloroform and later possibly with a measured injection.


All this is conjecture of course, but entirely possible.

[sadie]

Ok sadie, so Mrs Smith didn't say it & the daily mail made it all up.

One question, why?

WSpam, it is on a level to my seeing things but not being able to verify them any longer.  In my case i remember and recount.  In Mrs Smiths case her hubby speaks for her (third party)... and it is published in a rag.

Neither is totally satifactory.  I accept that and you should too.  Both are worth recounting, but how well would either stand up in Court, I wonder?

[Wonderfulspam]

Gawd, Sherlock, when we were there mid summer 2010 it was so quiet.  Everyone seemed to go to bed at 9 pm-ish.  There are two routes that I can think of that involve virtually no road walking except for crossiing quickly.

The first involves doubling back thru the car parks of A block and the next block in a more westerly direction, then crossing the main road onto semi derelict land. 
The main road would have been almost as dead as a dodo at that time of night imo.  For its whole length, until the Staff quarters, that wasteland followed the Rua D'Escola, which is the road that the Smiths saw Smithman in .  Doubling back might have been a bit tricky.

The second and probably the more likely route is via the rabbits warren of alleyways.  There is one that goes in a southerly direction and has an off shoot alleyway going west from behind Fazackerleys villa, number 35, then across Rua Francisco GM right on to the Baptista car park. 
From there across another car park, cross the main road and onto yet another car park.  Travel across some wasteland which comes out near The Staff quarters and just up from where Martin Smith saw him.

Apart from crossing two almost deserted roads, it is all alleyways,  car parks and wasteland.  No-one to see him until he had the misfortune to bump into the Smiths

As for Madeleine being asleep, it seems likely that she was drugged initially with chloroform and later possibly with a measured injection.


All this is conjecture of course, but entirely possible.

As for Madeleine being asleep, it seems likely that she was drugged initially with chloroform and later possibly with a measured injection.

Yep, the burglaring sex offender was also a trained anaesthetist.