Author Topic: Was Mr Smiths claim just pie in the sky after all?  (Read 144844 times)

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Offline pathfinder73

Re: Was Mr Smiths claim just pie in the sky after all?
« Reply #525 on: May 21, 2014, 11:43:44 AM »
How would anyone know for sure that Smithman had not just got out of a car or come out of a nearby house - where he may have been dropped off by an accomplice, when he was spotted by the Smiths?

He could have been sitting in a car or house making sure Madeleine was sedated waiting for news that a pre-arranged boat was now in place before setting off to the beach and disappearing across the sea in it with Madeleine.

Wait until the alarm is raised and everybody is out looking for her then move her through the streets. No abductor would do it. Use a car to only travel 200 metres away from the crime scene. I'm not using the silly billy symbol this time  8)--))
« Last Edit: May 21, 2014, 11:48:03 AM by pathfinder73 »
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline jassi

Re: Was Mr Smiths claim just pie in the sky after all?
« Reply #526 on: May 21, 2014, 12:09:32 PM »
I don't think pathfinder is saying that the corpse-carrier was panicking - just that  there was general panic in his wake as the frenzied search  got underway.
I believe everything. And l believe nothing.
I suspect everyone. And l suspect no one.
I gather the facts, examine the clues... and before   you know it, the case is solved!"

Or maybe not -

OG have been pushed out by the Germans who have reserved all the deck chairs for the foreseeable future

Alfred R Jones

  • Guest
Re: Was Mr Smiths claim just pie in the sky after all?
« Reply #527 on: May 21, 2014, 12:17:54 PM »
I don't think pathfinder is saying that the corpse-carrier was panicking - just that  there was general panic in his wake as the frenzied search  got underway.
Whether or not he was in a panic I don't see why one scenario is plausible and the other not - do you?

Offline jassi

Re: Was Mr Smiths claim just pie in the sky after all?
« Reply #528 on: May 21, 2014, 12:20:31 PM »
Whether or not he was in a panic I don't see why one scenario is plausible and the other not - do you?

 I can't really see why a stranger abductor would need to make off with a dead body.
I believe everything. And l believe nothing.
I suspect everyone. And l suspect no one.
I gather the facts, examine the clues... and before   you know it, the case is solved!"

Or maybe not -

OG have been pushed out by the Germans who have reserved all the deck chairs for the foreseeable future

Alfred R Jones

  • Guest
Re: Was Mr Smiths claim just pie in the sky after all?
« Reply #529 on: May 21, 2014, 01:04:43 PM »
It is amazing how that lynchpin of the abduction theory "Tannerman The Abductor" is no longer even today's fish and chip wrapper and Smithman is now "it" having replaced Tannerman, burglars, smelly man (oh shit I need a macro for all this)...
Shall we do a full SP and run a book?

Have you ever considered putting all your words of wisdom together in the form of a blog?  I'm sure it would be very popular with some.

Offline jassi

Re: Was Mr Smiths claim just pie in the sky after all?
« Reply #530 on: May 21, 2014, 01:05:44 PM »
I would have thought that carrying  a live child that might have started screaming at any moment was potentially  far more dangerous than carrying a dead one at speed through the streets.

To my mind, any abductor who felt in danger would just dump the child and rapidly  make off in the opposite direction.
I believe everything. And l believe nothing.
I suspect everyone. And l suspect no one.
I gather the facts, examine the clues... and before   you know it, the case is solved!"

Or maybe not -

OG have been pushed out by the Germans who have reserved all the deck chairs for the foreseeable future

Offline pathfinder73

Re: Was Mr Smiths claim just pie in the sky after all?
« Reply #531 on: May 21, 2014, 01:07:03 PM »
You haven't addressed my original point.  Why is it credible for the unsuspected insider (one who could easily be id'ed subsequently once their face is all over the news) to carry a corpse around town, but incredible for an anonymous abductor to carry away an abducted child? 

An abductor doesn't explain the moving doors or open window. That is easily explained in my theory and connects with everything else. Maybe you can explain how an abductor moved a door that many times? before Gerry's check, before Matt's check and a third time before Kate raised the alarm. How didn't Matt notice an open window or whooshing curtains? Tannerman was not the abductor. Matt's unplanned/unforeseen check is vital to this case due to no open window and the door being found half-open yet again - a door goes back to the same position twice? Or did it move at all? 8)-))) SY are right to get rid of that man. Smithman is the one. Amaral was removed when he was after him in 2007.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2014, 01:20:22 PM by pathfinder73 »
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline John

Re: Was Mr Smiths claim just pie in the sky after all?
« Reply #532 on: May 21, 2014, 01:55:18 PM »
Several points come to mind with Smithman.

* Planned abductions usually involve some form of transport, for an abductor to walk the entire distance from OC Block5 to the bottom of the town is illogical considering there could have been an alerted GNR patrol after him at any moment.

* Abducting a child only to murder her has no logic. It is unnecesary risk for no gain unless of course the perp was some sort of sadist.
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Alfred R Jones

  • Guest
Re: Was Mr Smiths claim just pie in the sky after all?
« Reply #533 on: May 21, 2014, 02:03:43 PM »
An abductor doesn't explain the moving doors or open window. That is easily explained in my theory and connects with everything else. Maybe you can explain how an abductor moved a door that many times? before Gerry's check, before Matt's check and a third time before Kate raised the alarm. How didn't Matt notice an open window or whooshing curtains? Tannerman was not the abductor. Matt's unplanned/unforeseen check is vital to this case due to no open window and the door being found half-open yet again - a door goes back to the same position twice? Or did it move at all? 8)-))) SY are right to get rid of that man. Smithman is the one. Amaral was removed when he was after him in 2007.
Once again, you fail to address this point - could you try for me please? Here it is again - why is it credible for the unsuspected insider (one who could easily be id'ed subsequently once their face is all over the news) to carry a corpse around town, but incredible for an anonymous abductor to carry away an abducted child? 

Alfred R Jones

  • Guest
Re: Was Mr Smiths claim just pie in the sky after all?
« Reply #534 on: May 21, 2014, 02:06:05 PM »
Several points come to mind with Smithman.

* Planned abductions usually involve some form of transport, for an abductor to walk the entire distance from OC Block5 to the bottom of the town is illogical considering there could have been an alerted GNR patrol after him at any moment.

* Abducting a child only to murder her has no logic. It is unnecesary risk for no gain unless of course the perp was some sort of sadist.
1) We don't know if Smithman walked the entire distance from the OC to where he was spotted, we have no evidence that he did.
2) I agree - she was more likely abducted to be abused, then murdered, sad though it is to say. 

Offline pathfinder73

Re: Was Mr Smiths claim just pie in the sky after all?
« Reply #535 on: May 21, 2014, 02:23:22 PM »
Once again, you fail to address this point - could you try for me please? Here it is again - why is it credible for the unsuspected insider (one who could easily be id'ed subsequently once their face is all over the news) to carry a corpse around town, but incredible for an anonymous abductor to carry away an abducted child? 

I don't believe an abductor would carry a body that far. This is not the complete nonsense of Tannerman walking around town with a body for 45 minutes. An abductor would have dumped the body before meeting the Smiths in the wasteland/bushes and subsequently found or in a bin. Smithman took the quietest route that he knew to quickly get to his destination - dark and quiet spot - he had no choice but to walk. An abductor would have a vehicle. But I have a good idea who would carry a deceased child that far. You can now explain the abductor and the moving door.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2014, 02:26:14 PM by pathfinder73 »
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Alfred R Jones

  • Guest
Re: Was Mr Smiths claim just pie in the sky after all?
« Reply #536 on: May 21, 2014, 02:46:07 PM »
I don't believe an abductor would carry a body that far. This is not the complete nonsense of Tannerman walking around town with a body for 45 minutes. An abductor would have dumped the body before meeting the Smiths in the wasteland/bushes and subsequently found or in a bin. Smithman took the quietest route that he knew to quickly get to his destination - dark and quiet spot - he had no choice but to walk. An abductor would have a vehicle. But I have a good idea who would carry a deceased child that far. You can now explain the abductor and the moving door.
You have made a number of gross assumptions - the abductor would have dumped the body?  What body?  Do you mean the child he has just stolen for reasons unknown?  Who could very well have still been alive?  Why would he have dumped her if he had not yet finished with her?  An abductor would have had a car?  Why, are all abductors made to have one by law?  And you still haven't really answered my question at all. 

Martina

  • Guest
Re: Was Mr Smiths claim just pie in the sky after all?
« Reply #537 on: May 21, 2014, 03:08:22 PM »
You have made a number of gross assumptions - the abductor would have dumped the body?  What body?  Do you mean the child he has just stolen for reasons unknown?

We don't know in what condition Maddie left the appartment. She might have been alive or she might have been dead. If she was alive she had to be heavily drugged, to lie calm in the arms of the perp, as described by Tanner.

Now, if Maddie was dead, it's a quite reasonable assumption that the perp wouldn't have been walking around Praia for 45 minutes, because that would have been too risky. What if he bumped into the cops, or someone noticed the child was dead? What if someone associated a man, carrying a lifeless girl with the news about Maddie being missing? Darrrrn too risky.

Quote
An abductor would have had a car?  Why, are all abductors made to have one by law? 

You know, a kidnapper needs to get away from the scene of the crime fast. Very fast. A car helps a lot with that. So it is another reasonable assumption, that if someone planned to kidnap Maddie, this person would secure a quick way out the town - in a car, waiting nearby the appartment 5A.

Now, we may theorise that she was kidnapped at the spur of the moment, by some mentally deranged person who found out the helpless chold in the unlocked flat. But, ah there is a BUT. We know nobody heard Maddie screaming or crying that night, and the child, carried by Tannerman, was just lying in his arms, not fighting, not resisting, not crying. Like it was asleep. So she had to be drugged, but nobody walks around with a shot of sleeping drugs in his pocket, SO whatever happened to Maddie had to be, at least to some extent, planned. So f the perp prepared the drugs, why wouldn't he prepare the car?

Alfred R Jones

  • Guest
Re: Was Mr Smiths claim just pie in the sky after all?
« Reply #538 on: May 21, 2014, 03:29:41 PM »
We don't know in what condition Maddie left the appartment. She might have been alive or she might have been dead. If she was alive she had to be heavily drugged, to lie calm in the arms of the perp, as described by Tanner.

Why heavily drugged?  She could have been asleep.  She could have been rendered unconscious through a blow to the head.  She could have been in a state of deep shock.  She could have been threatened or coerced not to make a sound.  Of course, she could have been chloroformed or similar.  There are several possibilities.  We just don't know which might be correct, or whether or not the girl was Madeleine in the first place.  Maybe she was the sleeping daughter of the bloke carrying her. 

Quote
Now, if Maddie was dead, it's a quite reasonable assumption that the perp wouldn't have been walking around Praia for 45 minutes, because that would have been too risky. What if he bumped into the cops, or someone noticed the child was dead? What if someone associated a man, carrying a lifeless girl with the news about Maddie being missing? Darrrrn too risky.
And yet, not considered at all risky for "someone else" to be walking through town with a corpse lying in his arms?  This is where I have the problem with your logic.  What if the abductor had taken the child to another location to do something wicked to her, to render her unconscious, or to await further instruction?  Then he wouldn't have been wandering around town for 45 minutes. 

Quote
You know, a kidnapper needs to get away from the scene of the crime fast. Very fast. A car helps a lot with that. So it is another reasonable assumption, that if someone planned to kidnap Maddie, this person would secure a quick way out the town - in a car, waiting nearby the appartment 5A.

Another quick way out of town is by boat.  And where would you get a boat from?  The harbour.  And where was that in relation to Smithman and the direction he appeared to be going in?

Quote
Now, we may theorise that she was kidnapped at the spur of the moment, by some mentally deranged person who found out the helpless chold in the unlocked flat. But, ah there is a BUT. We know nobody heard Maddie screaming or crying that night, and the child, carried by Tannerman, was just lying in his arms, not fighting, not resisting, not crying. Like it was asleep. So she had to be drugged, but nobody walks around with a shot of sleeping drugs in his pocket, SO whatever happened to Maddie had to be, at least to some extent, planned. So f the perp prepared the drugs, why wouldn't he prepare the car?
We know the person seen by JT was an innocent passer-by carrying his child so that's why the child was not crying and resisting. If an abductor had planned to steal a child it does not immediately follow that he MUST have had a car, although I agree it would be a more sensible option than walking around town with the victim.  Personally, it's why I think Smithman is as much a red herring as JT's sighting but then we don't know the circumstances of the abductor, what drove him to commit the act, who else may have been involved, for what purpose he took the child, his mental state etc.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2014, 03:34:37 PM by Alfred R Jones »

Alfred R Jones

  • Guest
Re: Was Mr Smiths claim just pie in the sky after all?
« Reply #539 on: May 21, 2014, 03:35:52 PM »
I was going to post a witty riposte but with your record for the mods deleting your posts it would be wasted  8(>((
Tsk, don't be so modest, that riposte was quite witty and most marvellous, many thanks and well done again.