Author Topic: Who was the Irish teenager who saw Gerry and Jez talking?  (Read 86578 times)

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Online misty

Re: Who was the Irish teenager who saw Gerry and Jez talking?
« Reply #30 on: March 22, 2015, 07:31:45 PM »
http://forum2.aimoo.com/MadeleineMcCann/Ocean-Club-Guests/Guests-Apartments-1-804793.html

Wherever MacKenzie was staying, he said it was in an apartment near Berry & Balu. That doesn't really invalidate the rest of my previous points.

Offline ShiningInLuz

Re: Who was the Irish teenager who saw Gerry and Jez talking?
« Reply #31 on: March 22, 2015, 07:48:21 PM »
28/04-05/05 G603 Nicole Cox & Raj Balu
05/05-12/05 G603 Parr
02/05-11/05 G604 Gill (donos booking)
28/04-05/05 G606 Neil Berry
28/04-05/05 G607 Curtis Leon Cameron Brain & Dr L Hurne
28/04-05/05 G608 Lisa Marjorie Preston
06/05-11/05 G608 Caroline Baker
28/04-05/05 G610 Anthony Hack
05/05-12/05 G610 Warren03/05-10/05 G13a Toshie Giencke
05/05-19/05 G16 Michael Allan
28/04-05/05 G16 Anthony Eaton
29/04-03/05 G19 Jan Lewardowski
03/05-10/05 G19 Julie Martin
23/04-11/05 G20 Dr Pawer
03/05-10/05 G25 Kevin Morris Wilcox
28/04-05/05 G29 Tushar Patel
05/05-12/05 G29 Michelle Anne Kerrigan
28/04-05/05 G30 Mark Handy
05/05-19/05 G30 Luke Benjamin Savage
30/04-05/05 G31 Mackenzie
05/05-11/05 G31 Brewin
28/04-05/05 G41 Sandra Bowness
28/04-05/05 G46 Antony John Heselton
03/05-10/05 G51 Irene McMillan
28/04-12/05 G52 George Blackbur

Are those apartments not part of Block 6? I thought that it was L-shaped.

Impressive list.  Raj Balu was in 603.  Neil Berry was in 606.  Both of these are part of block 6.  Anything that does not start with a 6 is not part of block 6.

I cannot explain numbers that go up to 52 at this point in time.
What's up, old man?

Offline G-Unit

Re: Who was the Irish teenager who saw Gerry and Jez talking?
« Reply #32 on: March 22, 2015, 09:05:35 PM »
http://forum2.aimoo.com/MadeleineMcCann/Ocean-Club-Guests/Guests-Apartments-1-804793.html

Wherever MacKenzie was staying, he said it was in an apartment near Berry & Balu. That doesn't really invalidate the rest of my previous points.

No, it was just that bit. I wondered if G31 meant Block 3, but the only 3 I could find is in Waterside Village, quite a way away towards the beach.  Mckenzie does say he was near the others, and he mentioned an indian family. The Patels were in G29, so that could have been them. He says they moved in part way through his stay, but they booked the same dates as he did. I wonder where they went initially then? McKenzie clearly says he was moved on the day of departure to an apartment across the road from G5A, that definitely was block 6. He wasn't in Block 6 before then, unless the palm tree is dead, there's none there now;

 I went to search the area around the back of our apartment where there is a little garden with a big palm tree in the middle. I was looking in the shrubbery and the little gardens to the apartments.

I worked my way around the area, eventually coming around the back of the tennis courts and up towards what I now know to be the McCanns apartment a couple of hours later. I was looking in the little gardens on the poolside of that block, I was in the end garden when I heard a male voice, he sounded distraught his voice cracking with emotion. I looked to see who I now know to be Gerry McCann stood above me on the balcony/patio about 3 metres away speaking on a mobile phone. I cannot recall his exact words but I got the impression that he was speaking to perhaps a family member or someone he was very close to due to the nature of his conversation.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GRAHAM-MCKENZIE.htm

a couple of hours later? he said he heard Gerry on the phone at 11pm! I despair of these statements sometimes lol.
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Offline ShiningInLuz

Re: Who was the Irish teenager who saw Gerry and Jez talking?
« Reply #33 on: March 22, 2015, 10:29:09 PM »
No, it was just that bit. I wondered if G31 meant Block 3, but the only 3 I could find is in Waterside Village, quite a way away towards the beach.  Mckenzie does say he was near the others, and he mentioned an indian family. The Patels were in G29, so that could have been them. He says they moved in part way through his stay, but they booked the same dates as he did. I wonder where they went initially then? McKenzie clearly says he was moved on the day of departure to an apartment across the road from G5A, that definitely was block 6. He wasn't in Block 6 before then, unless the palm tree is dead, there's none there now;

 I went to search the area around the back of our apartment where there is a little garden with a big palm tree in the middle. I was looking in the shrubbery and the little gardens to the apartments.

I worked my way around the area, eventually coming around the back of the tennis courts and up towards what I now know to be the McCanns apartment a couple of hours later. I was looking in the little gardens on the poolside of that block, I was in the end garden when I heard a male voice, he sounded distraught his voice cracking with emotion. I looked to see who I now know to be Gerry McCann stood above me on the balcony/patio about 3 metres away speaking on a mobile phone. I cannot recall his exact words but I got the impression that he was speaking to perhaps a family member or someone he was very close to due to the nature of his conversation.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GRAHAM-MCKENZIE.htm

a couple of hours later? he said he heard Gerry on the phone at 11pm! I despair of these statements sometimes lol.

Palm tree in garden behind block 1, very near to block 6.
What's up, old man?

Offline G-Unit

Re: Who was the Irish teenager who saw Gerry and Jez talking?
« Reply #34 on: March 22, 2015, 10:35:32 PM »
Palm tree in garden behind block 1, very near to block 6.

Well done! I wonder if he was in that block then?
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Offline Brietta

Re: Who was the Irish teenager who saw Gerry and Jez talking?
« Reply #35 on: March 23, 2015, 12:31:48 AM »
I'll go back and have another squiz just to be sure but here are my thoughts at this moment.

The key part is the layout of block 5 (yup, block 5, not block 6).

Block 5 has a single central stairwell.  Every apartment above ground floor has to be accessed from this stairwell.

The four apartments on the ground floor have a pathway in front of them.  This pathway is separated from the car park by a wall about 1m high.  The way one gets from block 5 into the car park or from the car park into block 5 is via a gap in this wall, and the gap is directly in front of the central stairwell.  So everyone in block 5 has to go very close to the central stairwell.

Unless you have a completely unhindered view of the front of block 5, you can tell people are going in and out of the car park, but you can't tell whether someone is using a ground floor entrance, or the central stairwell.

Block 6 is L shaped, with 2 stairwells.  The short part of the L is opposite 5A, the long leg heads east away from block 5.

One stairwell is half-way up the long leg of the L, perhaps 40 or 50m from block 5, and there is no view whatsoever of the rear of block 5.  So let's move to the other stairwell.

That is where the long leg of the L and the short leg of the L come together, fairly close to the entrance of the car park for block 6.

There are 5 apartments on the ground floor.  Apartment 5 occupies the short leg of the L.  Apartment 4 is the one heading eastwards from this stairwell.  One floor up is apartment 8 (above 4), and apartment 9 (above 5).  I presume on the final floor it is 12 (above 8) and 13 (above 9).

So 5, 9, and presumably 13, are directly opposite block 5.  The rear patio of these is a great place to monitor the Tapas area and the rear of block 5.  The rear patio is near useless for monitoring the front of block 5.  You get to see part of the block 5 car park near its entrance if you are lucky.

From the front of this stairwell in block 6, you get a partial view of the rear of apartment 5A, but still not a clear view of the front.  That pesky central entrance/exit to block 5 is the problem.

In descending order of probabilities.
Apartments 5, 9 and 13.  Ability to clearly see the back from private balcony.  Limited ability to see the front from public access.
Apartments 4, 8, and 12, the ones using the same stairwell.  No ability to see apartment 5A from private balcony at rear.  Public access at front gives a limited view of the front of 5A, and a limited view of the rear.
Anyone not connected with these apartments.  Same access as 4, 8, 12 but no legitimate reason to spend hours monitoring there, thus standing out like a sore thumb.

I will pay another visit some time this week, to confirm.

The law on smoking in commercial establishments (pubs, restaurants) changed on 1/1/2008.  The establishments had to choose to be non-smoking or smoking (and had to install suitable extractor fans).  Of the 3 that I know remained smoking, all are owned/run by Portuguese folk.

If you have read Amaral's book, he recounts late night progress meetings where you could cut the smoke with a knife.

According to the PJ files, the Portuguese police were using one of the apartments in block 6 as a police station.

So, probabilities again, this time in ascending order.
Butts belonged to the police, so no interest.
Police could see that the location of the butts was not a place to monitor.
Butts came from someone who monitored, and is implicated.
Butts came from someone after the event, e.g. someone trying to get a different view.
Butts came from someone unconnected, probably from a country where non-smoking laws had been implemented for some time.

There is no vantage point of the front of apartment block 5 from the short leg of block 6, as per your excellent description.
I think a watcher would have gained all the information required from a view of the patio entrance which could not be locked from outside.

The trees had hanging branches which from photographs I find reminiscent of willows, totally obscured the front of block 5.  Therefore it could only have been monitored from the building across the road ... we discussed this at length just a short while ago when we discovered that the gardener to be questioned worked there (sorry I don't have the link, if you are interested I will look for it later).

Graham McKenzie noticed the cigarette butts very soon after Madeleine's disappearance and prior to the police using an apartment in 6 as a control centre ... so I think that may knock out a couple of your probabilities.
However the likelihood that they had no connection to Madeleine's disappearance was never tested, and it should have been.

Also Heri has carried out research into the possibility that 5A might have been under surveillance and has taken photographs from the balcony in 6 some of which are at the links following.

He also took photographs of a possible vantage point at ground level from the garden of 6 which can be found in H10A. 

He has also given sight lines from the apartment block directly opposite 5.

http://www.justpamalam.co.uk/hg/1/H10A/Apart.%20128%20(Large).jpg
http://gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/H13.htm

I will be interested in your take on it if you get time to revisit this week.

"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Online misty

Re: Who was the Irish teenager who saw Gerry and Jez talking?
« Reply #36 on: March 23, 2015, 01:34:21 AM »
IMO the watcher only needed a view of the road, from the entrance to OC & Tapas Bar up to the corner of the road past 5a, purely to see the comings & goings of the parents.
The abductor(s) waiting somewhere close by would have had the car-park & front entrance covered.

Offline Brietta

Re: Who was the Irish teenager who saw Gerry and Jez talking?
« Reply #37 on: March 23, 2015, 09:57:04 AM »
IMO the watcher only needed a view of the road, from the entrance to OC & Tapas Bar up to the corner of the road past 5a, purely to see the comings & goings of the parents.
The abductor(s) waiting somewhere close by would have had the car-park & front entrance covered.

I agree with that Misty.

There are far too many unresolved witness sightings of men studying the exterior of the corner apartment in the run up to the 3rd May for the probability to be discarded.

If Madeleine McCann's abduction was planned there would be more than one participant and each would have their own task to perform.  There are more ways than mobile phone communications to have prearranged signals ... even just as simple as breaking cover.

The most risky time for being discovered would have been the couple of necessary minutes spent in the apartment. 

The checks on the children were carried out by individual parents, had Kate McCann or Jane Tanner or any of the men walked into the middle of it they would not have been given the time to realise what was happening before being overcome and rendered unable to raise an alarm.

The injuries sustained by the mother of the kidnapped Serbian child are indicative of that.

I have posted the image before but I think it is worth posting again in this context ... the 15 year old kidnapper, complete with false moustache calls to mind the "impossible" method of escaping the scene carrying a child ... l'actualité certainly mirrors Jane Tanner's description.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2995680/Boy-15-wore-fake-mustache-try-abduct-child-linked-kidnap-case-nine-months-ago.html#ixzz3UaWEgkPb

"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline faithlilly

Re: Who was the Irish teenager who saw Gerry and Jez talking?
« Reply #38 on: March 23, 2015, 10:14:19 AM »
I agree with that Misty.

There are far too many unresolved witness sightings of men studying the exterior of the corner apartment in the run up to the 3rd May for the probability to be discarded.

If Madeleine McCann's abduction was planned there would be more than one participant and each would have their own task to perform.  There are more ways than mobile phone communications to have prearranged signals ... even just as simple as breaking cover.

The most risky time for being discovered would have been the couple of necessary minutes spent in the apartment. 

The checks on the children were carried out by individual parents, had Kate McCann or Jane Tanner or any of the men walked into the middle of it they would not have been given the time to realise what was happening before being overcome and rendered unable to raise an alarm.

The injuries sustained by the mother of the kidnapped Serbian child are indicative of that.

I have posted the image before but I think it is worth posting again in this context ... the 15 year old kidnapper, complete with false moustache calls to mind the "impossible" method of escaping the scene carrying a child ... l'actualité certainly mirrors Jane Tanner's description.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2995680/Boy-15-wore-fake-mustache-try-abduct-child-linked-kidnap-case-nine-months-ago.html#ixzz3UaWEgkPb

Has it slipped your memory Brietta that Tannerman has been ruled out by SY ?

Isn't it funny that SY judgement is promoted when ruling out the McCanns but not Tannerman.
Brietta posted on 10/04/2022 “But whether or not that is the reason behind the delay I am certain that Brueckner's trial is going to take place.”

Let’s count the months, shall we?

Offline Alice Purjorick

Re: Who was the Irish teenager who saw Gerry and Jez talking?
« Reply #39 on: March 23, 2015, 10:46:34 AM »
Has it slipped your memory Brietta that Tannerman has been ruled out by SY ?

Isn't it funny that SY judgement is promoted when ruling out the McCanns but not Tannerman.

More like predictable  8(>((
"Tannerman The Abductor" was fragged by DCI Andy nearly 18 months ago. DCI Andy also said Smithman was a person of interest who needed to be identified so he could be ruled in or out................................
What is difficult to understand?
"Navigating the difference between weird but normal grief and truly suspicious behaviour is the key for any detective worth his salt.". ….Sarah Bailey

Offline faithlilly

Re: Who was the Irish teenager who saw Gerry and Jez talking?
« Reply #40 on: March 23, 2015, 10:50:38 AM »
More like predictable  8(>((
"Tannerman The Abductor" was fragged by DCI Andy nearly 18 months ago. DCI Andy also said Smithman was a person of interest who needed to be identified so he could be ruled in or out................................
What is difficult to understand?

That is the $64000 question Alice !
Brietta posted on 10/04/2022 “But whether or not that is the reason behind the delay I am certain that Brueckner's trial is going to take place.”

Let’s count the months, shall we?

Offline Brietta

Re: Who was the Irish teenager who saw Gerry and Jez talking?
« Reply #41 on: March 23, 2015, 10:51:53 AM »
More like predictable  8(>((
"Tannerman The Abductor" was fragged by DCI Andy nearly 18 months ago. DCI Andy also said Smithman was a person of interest who needed to be identified so he could be ruled in or out................................
What is difficult to understand?

Totally correct Alice ... it doesn't take a genius to work it out.  8)--))
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline faithlilly

Re: Who was the Irish teenager who saw Gerry and Jez talking?
« Reply #42 on: March 23, 2015, 10:53:06 AM »
Totally correct Alice ... it doesn't take a genius to work it out.  8)--))

Then why are you still promoting Tannerman ?
Brietta posted on 10/04/2022 “But whether or not that is the reason behind the delay I am certain that Brueckner's trial is going to take place.”

Let’s count the months, shall we?

Offline G-Unit

Re: Who was the Irish teenager who saw Gerry and Jez talking?
« Reply #43 on: March 23, 2015, 11:16:41 AM »
28/04-05/05 G603 Nicole Cox & Raj Balu
05/05-12/05 G603 Parr
02/05-11/05 G604 Gill (donos booking)
28/04-05/05 G606 Neil Berry
28/04-05/05 G607 Curtis Leon Cameron Brain & Dr L Hurne
28/04-05/05 G608 Lisa Marjorie Preston
06/05-11/05 G608 Caroline Baker
28/04-05/05 G610 Anthony Hack
05/05-12/05 G610 Warren03/05-10/05 G13a Toshie Giencke
05/05-19/05 G16 Michael Allan
28/04-05/05 G16 Anthony Eaton
29/04-03/05 G19 Jan Lewardowski
03/05-10/05 G19 Julie Martin
23/04-11/05 G20 Dr Pawer
03/05-10/05 G25 Kevin Morris Wilcox
28/04-05/05 G29 Tushar Patel
05/05-12/05 G29 Michelle Anne Kerrigan
28/04-05/05 G30 Mark Handy
05/05-19/05 G30 Luke Benjamin Savage
30/04-05/05 G31 Mackenzie
05/05-11/05 G31 Brewin
28/04-05/05 G41 Sandra Bowness
28/04-05/05 G46 Antony John Heselton
03/05-10/05 G51 Irene McMillan
28/04-12/05 G52 George Blackbur

Are those apartments not part of Block 6? I thought that it was L-shaped.

According to the above. Mackenzie was in G31 from 30th April, but according to the Ocean Club booking sheets he arrived on 28th with everyone else. I followed your link Misty, thanks, but couldn't find where the above info comes from. I don't think it's in the PJ Files.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P2/02_VOLUME_IIa_Page_350.jpg
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Offline Alice Purjorick

Re: Who was the Irish teenager who saw Gerry and Jez talking?
« Reply #44 on: March 23, 2015, 11:26:06 AM »
Then why are you still promoting Tannerman ?

Having had wall to wall Richard III yesterday an idle thought passed through my mind which thought may not be original even.
"Had Ms Philippa Langley been intransigent and not graceful in the face of reality she would still be having half of Leicester dug up looking for a straight one"  @)(++(*
"Navigating the difference between weird but normal grief and truly suspicious behaviour is the key for any detective worth his salt.". ….Sarah Bailey