Who was the Irish teenager who saw Gerry and Jez talking?

[Brietta]

Thank you, DCI, for digging that out again. ;)

Seconded ... however it brings to mind the marathon interview Jane Tanner had, she must have been mentally and physically exhausted at the end of it.
It also illustrates the value of a verbatim recording of the interviewee answering and the interviewer asking questions.

[pathfinder73]

Seconded ... however it brings to mind the marathon interview Jane Tanner had, she must have been mentally and physically exhausted at the end of it.
It also illustrates the value of a verbatim recording of the interviewee answering and the interviewer asking questions.

Excuses. She said it was Murat because of the way he walked across the road. Later at the time of the rog (April 2008) she is changing her opinion about it but that night she told the Portuguese police Murat was the one.

[DCI]

That is copied straight. I can't copy the full rog.

JT: well I did the surveillance and then the next day after that, I think it came on Sky News about whether they were searching, what the MURAT’s house, so that’s Rachel sort of came running down at that point and sort of said, have you seen this blah, blah and at this point, nobody knew that I’d done the surveillance cos the Portuguese Police were very adamant that I shouldn’t tell anybody and I didn’t tell anybody for days actually, I didn’t even tell them then that it was actually, that I’d done it, I mean it was a couple of days afterwards.  So Rachel came down and sort of said, oh I saw him blah, blah, blah and then I think Russell, I can’t remember who else but then somebody else said oh they, they saw him and etc., so at that point it was, I rang Bob SMALL cos I’d got, I’d got his number from the day before for them and you know, they sort of, you know to say, oh is this, is this relevant and also I wanted to tell him that I’d seen him on the way to the doing the surveillance as well yeah just for that, so I think it’s just to make the point really that I think at that point, they didn’t know that Robert MURAT said he wasn’t there on the night”.
4078    “Right”.
 Reply    “You know, or said yeah, had said that he wasn’t there on the night, so you know was immediately, I think it was immediately, I’m not trying to push anything onto Robert MURAT’s door, cos as I say I don’t think it was him that I saw”.
4078    “No”.
 Reply    “But I just thought it was”.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JANE_TANNER_RIGATORY.htm

No what you copied was not in context. You used two seperate bits. She never said blah, blah, blah, either lol. (Joke).

She admits it in her rog. At the time she thought it was him.

I realise they were probably calling Robert MURAT to try and get him to walk across, across the top of the road so that, you know, I could see.

I’m not trying to push anything onto Robert MURAT’s door, cos as I say I don’t think it was him that I saw”.
4078    “No”.
 Reply    “But I just thought it was”.

[ferryman]

Excuses, excuses. Always an excuse for everything 

What would be the excuse for this?

So, erm, we, erm, so, yeah, and I did tell Russell where I was going, because I thought ‘I’m not just going and getting in a car with somebody who is taking me to see the Spanish Police’.  So Russell, we walked, so I arranged to meet Bob SMALL in a car park at half seven or something at night or whatever it was, so Russell and I walked up to, erm, to meet Bob SMALL and, by chance, erm, we walked up, we’d missed the throng of Press that were at the top of the road, we actually walked up by Robert MURAT’s house and he came down in his car, in his van at that point, stopped, and he knew Russ, he’d met Russell earlier in the week, so he actually jumped out to say ‘Hi’ to Russell and he was showing us, erm, things in the back of his car as to what he was doing with the, erm, because they’d set up a stop where people could come and give their own evidence”.
 
4078    “Yeah, I can remember that”.
Reply    “So he’d actually jumped out and I’d never, I’d never, I hadn’t met him at this point, so I didn’t really know who he was and I wasn’t really taking it in because I was worried sick I was about to be abducted by the people”.

So they chatted to Robert Murat before the identification procedure.

What does that tell us?
 

[DCI]

Thank you, DCI, for digging that out again. ;)

You are welcome, Carana and Brietta!

[pathfinder73]

What would be the excuse for this?

So, erm, we, erm, so, yeah, and I did tell Russell where I was going, because I thought ‘I’m not just going and getting in a car with somebody who is taking me to see the Spanish Police’.  So Russell, we walked, so I arranged to meet Bob SMALL in a car park at half seven or something at night or whatever it was, so Russell and I walked up to, erm, to meet Bob SMALL and, by chance, erm, we walked up, we’d missed the throng of Press that were at the top of the road, we actually walked up by Robert MURAT’s house and he came down in his car, in his van at that point, stopped, and he knew Russ, he’d met Russell earlier in the week, so he actually jumped out to say ‘Hi’ to Russell and he was showing us, erm, things in the back of his car as to what he was doing with the, erm, because they’d set up a stop where people could come and give their own evidence”.
 
4078    “Yeah, I can remember that”.
Reply    “So he’d actually jumped out and I’d never, I’d never, I hadn’t met him at this point, so I didn’t really know who he was and I wasn’t really taking it in because I was worried sick I was about to be abducted by the people”.

So they chatted to Robert Murat before the identification procedure.

What does that tell us?
 

She had no idea it was Robert Murat at the time of the surveillance crossing the road. Murat and other officers were walking across the road and Tanner said it's him because of the way he was walking. This happened next.

The investigator, with whom Murat is on friendly terms, is with him in a bar until 2 o'clock in the morning. We are not about to relax surveillance. As soon as he gets home, police officers are stationed around his house in order to monitor all entrances. The crisis unit is buzzing; the teams are preparing for the search. It will be carried out at 7am - the legally designated time -, when the journalists are not yet on the streets. The operation is kept secret. We request reinforcements from the GNR. For the moment, we have no evidence against Murat, only suspicions. If we had been certain that Madeleine was in the house, we wouldn't have had to wait for daylight to intervene. Scenes of crime specialists accompany us in the search for evidence. Outside, two rainwater recovery tanks are explored with the help of divers. We pack up a few items of clothing to send to a laboratory that will carry out the search for fibres, hair, traces of blood that possibly came from Maddie. The cars are also gone over with a fine tooth comb. Laptops are seized and their contents examined by specialists. We find a cutting from a British newspaper, dated 23rd September 2006, that refers to a case of paedophilia. (TOTL)

[ferryman]

She had no idea it was Robert Murat at the time of the surveillance crossing the road. Murat and other officers were walking across the road and Tanner said it's him because of the way he was walking. This happened next.

The investigator, with whom Murat is on friendly terms, is with him in a bar until 2 o'clock in the morning. We are not about to relax surveillance. As soon as he gets home, police officers are stationed around his house in order to monitor all entrances. The crisis unit is buzzing; the teams are preparing for the search. It will be carried out at 7am - the legally designated time -, when the journalists are not yet on the streets. The operation is kept secret. We request reinforcements from the GNR. For the moment, we have no evidence against Murat, only suspicions. If we had been certain that Madeleine was in the house, we wouldn't have had to wait for daylight to intervene. Scenes of crime specialists accompany us in the search for evidence. Outside, two rainwater recovery tanks are explored with the help of divers. We pack up a few items of clothing to send to a laboratory that will carry out the search for fibres, hair, traces of blood that possibly came from Maddie. The cars are also gone over with a fine tooth comb. Laptops are seized and their contents examined by specialists. We find a cutting from a British newspaper, dated 23rd September 2006, that refers to a case of paedophilia. (TOTL)

The identification procedure was null and void from the point they met Robert Murat beforehand.

And Jane is very plain she didn't recognise him.

[DCI]

Seconded ... however it brings to mind the marathon interview Jane Tanner had, she must have been mentally and physically exhausted at the end of it.
It also illustrates the value of a verbatim recording of the interviewee answering and the interviewer asking questions.

That's what is wrong with the PJ interviews statements.

They are all, "When asked" or "The depondent when asked".

[Carana]

Seconded ... however it brings to mind the marathon interview Jane Tanner had, she must have been mentally and physically exhausted at the end of it.
It also illustrates the value of a verbatim recording of the interviewee answering and the interviewer asking questions.

To my mind, it illustrates that a verbatim written transcript is better than an interpreted statement written in the 3-person, but still doesn't obviate the need for a full audio version (even better an audiovisual one).

The UK police would have requested further clarification of the point if it had been in doubt, just as the PJ officers in attendance could also have done. And both police forces have had ample time to review the interview in any case.

[pathfinder73]

The identification procedure was null and void from the point they met Robert Murat beforehand.

And Jane is very plain she didn't recognise him.

She was looking for the man she saw crossing the road that night not Robert Murat. She just said Murat was him 

[Benice]

Right”.
 Reply    “You know, or said yeah, had said that he wasn’t there on the night, so you know was immediately, I think it was immediately, I’m not trying to push anything onto Robert MURAT’s door, cos as I say I don’t think it was him that I saw”.
4078    “No”.
 Reply    “But I just thought it was”.

Wouldn't surprise me in the least if something was adroitly omitted, there ...

I think she simply ended talking in the middle of a sentence - but the typist does not show that by the usual row of dots i.e........... but just puts a full stop.   There are loads of examples of the same.

Jayne Tanner
 I can’t remember what we did specifically in the time in between. I think we just had something to eat and just I think we were in Dave and Fi’s apartment, but.


JT
 I mean, obviously I don’t  know, I don’t know Jez, I hadn’t actually, I hadn’t had any contact with Jez through the week, I didn’t, you know, he wasn’t somebody we chatted to, so, you know, in terms of him recognising me or knowing me, he didn’t know me, so”.


JT
Reply    “I know, the problem is, it’s just getting the Press and the”.

JT

4078    “Right”.

Reply    “You know, or said yeah, had said that he wasn’t there on the night, so you know was immediately, I think it was immediately, I’m not trying to push anything onto Robert MURAT’s door, cos as I say I don’t think it was him that I saw”.

4078    “No”.

Reply    “But I just thought it was”.

4078    “Because there had been some dispute as to whether they’ve actually seen him when they’ve said they’ve seen him”.

Reply    “Yeah I think, I just want to make it clear that from my own point of view, they gave that information as soon as it came onto Sky and asked and you know they were sort of like, oh let’s ring Bob SMALL to see if it’s relevant at this point and at that point, none of us knew that he wasn’t there on you know, that he didn’t say that he was there on the night and”.

4078    “Yes”.

Reply    “And I, I mean I didn’t myself see him on the night at all but somebody did say to me, who translated for you, was it the lady or the man and it, it was the lady, I said, Sylvie and I hadn’t seen a man but again I don’t know whether that has any relevance that there was somebody else there translating, you know during the night so”.

4078    “Okay, that’s certainly a point worth bringing up when we interview the other people that have seen him there on the night”.

Reply    “Yeah exactly, I’m not trying to, cos I feel you know, if he’s not involved, the poor chap’s had as much crap as us really, I feel very, you know, he’s not involved but I do think it’s important that”.

4078    “Get to the truth of the matter”?

Reply    “Get to the truth of the matter and the truth is you know they, when they asked me to ring Bob SMALL to make these statements, we didn’t even know that he’d erm, hadn’t, hadn’t said he was there on the night and they didn’t know that I’d done the surveillance”.

End quotes

If Jane Tanner had identifed Murat it would have been recorded as important evidence in the AG's report as to why Murat was made an arguido.   The AG doesn't mention it - because it didn't happen,

If the police officer had thought JT was saying she thought the man she saw was Murat - then surely she would have followed up on that to clarify what was an apparent contradiction?

[Carana]

Jane was villified by the media, poor girl. Until I read her rogatory interview I was totally confused about the alleged changes in her story and her descriptions as stated or alluded to in the media.

In reality, there weren't any. Her account makes perfect sense to me.

[Carana]

I think she simply ended talking in the middle of a sentence - but the typist does not show that by the usual row of dots i.e........... but just puts a full stop.   There are loads of examples of the same.

Jayne Tanner
 I can’t remember what we did specifically in the time in between. I think we just had something to eat and just I think we were in Dave and Fi’s apartment, but.


JT
 I mean, obviously I don’t  know, I don’t know Jez, I hadn’t actually, I hadn’t had any contact with Jez through the week, I didn’t, you know, he wasn’t somebody we chatted to, so, you know, in terms of him recognising me or knowing me, he didn’t know me, so”.


JT
Reply    “I know, the problem is, it’s just getting the Press and the”.

JT

4078    “Right”.

Reply    “You know, or said yeah, had said that he wasn’t there on the night, so you know was immediately, I think it was immediately, I’m not trying to push anything onto Robert MURAT’s door, cos as I say I don’t think it was him that I saw”.

4078    “No”.

Reply    “But I just thought it was”.

4078    “Because there had been some dispute as to whether they’ve actually seen him when they’ve said they’ve seen him”.

Reply    “Yeah I think, I just want to make it clear that from my own point of view, they gave that information as soon as it came onto Sky and asked and you know they were sort of like, oh let’s ring Bob SMALL to see if it’s relevant at this point and at that point, none of us knew that he wasn’t there on you know, that he didn’t say that he was there on the night and”.

4078    “Yes”.

Reply    “And I, I mean I didn’t myself see him on the night at all but somebody did say to me, who translated for you, was it the lady or the man and it, it was the lady, I said, Sylvie and I hadn’t seen a man but again I don’t know whether that has any relevance that there was somebody else there translating, you know during the night so”.

4078    “Okay, that’s certainly a point worth bringing up when we interview the other people that have seen him there on the night”.

Reply    “Yeah exactly, I’m not trying to, cos I feel you know, if he’s not involved, the poor chap’s had as much crap as us really, I feel very, you know, he’s not involved but I do think it’s important that”.

4078    “Get to the truth of the matter”?

Reply    “Get to the truth of the matter and the truth is you know they, when they asked me to ring Bob SMALL to make these statements, we didn’t even know that he’d erm, hadn’t, hadn’t said he was there on the night and they didn’t know that I’d done the surveillance”.

End quotes

If Jane Tanner had identifed Murat it would have been recorded as important evidence in the AG's report as to why Murat was made an arguido.   The AG doesn't mention it - because it didn't happen,

If the police officer had thought JT was saying she thought the man she saw was Murat - then surely she would have followed up on that to clarify what was an apparent contradiction?

Exactly, Benice. It's clear to me that they are both talking at the same time in some instances.

[pathfinder73]

"It later transpired that on the evening before Murat was taken in for questioning, the police had summoned Jane to a mysterious rendezvous in the car park next to the Millennium area, refusing to say why they wanted to see her and insisting she told no one. Their behaviour seemed so sinister that she was quite scared." (Madeleine)

What? The PJ were trying to find your missing daughter! Isn't that more important than poor Jane feeling a bit scared.

[Brietta]

Excuses. She said it was Murat because of the way he walked across the road. Later at the time of the rog (April 2008) she is changing her opinion about it but that night she told the Portuguese police Murat was the one.

That has as much validity as Mr Smith commenting on the way Dr McCann carried his child. 

She never claimed the man she saw was Murat.