Author Topic: Who was the Irish teenager who saw Gerry and Jez talking?  (Read 86402 times)

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Offline Brietta

Re: Who was the Irish teenager who saw Gerry and Jez talking?
« Reply #270 on: March 31, 2015, 08:05:53 PM »
Good question Eleanor.  Maybe she refused to make a statement implicating Murat if she wasn't sure.  Murat's home and business premises and all his vehices were the subject of exhaustive searches.  His was tailed, his phone tapped and his associates all checked out.  For that to happen somebody somewhere must have fingered him.  Jane was questioned again about it when back home in England because there was doubt about what she had admitted to when with the PJ.

From the account in the files I think Robert Murat's behaviour was found suspicious by the PJ and separately by a journalist; so in effect he 'fingered' himself.
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline DCI

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Re: Who was the Irish teenager who saw Gerry and Jez talking?
« Reply #271 on: March 31, 2015, 08:18:06 PM »
From the account in the files I think Robert Murat's behaviour was found suspicious by the PJ and separately by a journalist; so in effect he 'fingered' himself.

Correct Brietta.

Translators note - -
I must make it clear that this officer, while doing his clear professional duty, was, of necessity, couching much of his statement in a very diplomatic manner. Some of his phrasing I have managed to keep word-for-word, whereas other parts I have had to cut directly to the chase because it is simply too tortuous for me to convert word-for-word into English.
As usual my inline explanatory comments are in square brackets.

Processo page 960-961
Service Information document dated 11 May 2007 from Inspector Pedro Varanda relating to an informal conversation with Robert Murat

As you will know, Sir, on this day at 11h30, there appeared before the undersigned and (lady) Inspector Patricia Duarte, a British citizen called Diane Webster, holder of UK passport XXXXXXX, in order to hear her witness statement.

In the course of an informal approach that preceeded that work, it was determined that she was not conversant in Portuguese, written or spoken, and the service of an English-speaking interpreter was therefore called for.

In this function appeared a British citizen, Robert J.Q.E. Murat (duly identified in the files from previous work), official resident of Casa Liliana, Rua Ramalhete, Praia da Luz, Lagos.

The work [the DW interview] being concluded, and during an informal conversation that the undersigned began with that interpreter (as would be characteristic in this type of situation), Robert Murat displayed an unusual curiosity about the investigation that was developing around the disappearance of the minor Madeleine McCann that occurred on 3 May 2007.

As an example, it will be proper to point out that he has insistently and repeatedly questioned me about the identity of possible suspects, about the strategy outlined by the lead coordinator of the investigation and the work that might possibly have been considered for the coming days.
Before
[faced with] such an attitude, that was so unusual and absolutely inappropriate that I immediately became highly suspicious, I always countered [ducked the questions], insistently requesting that person to be aware of the contractual duties pertaining to the role which he has assumed in this investigation, pointing out that it was presently the inquiry phase, and, naturally, covered by judicial secrecy.

It behoves me further to state that that suspicion became even more consolidated, following the fact that I became aware that Robert Murat would covertly attempt to catch glimpses of various procedural pieces
[items being prepared for the case file] that make up the present inquiry, to the point that I followed my own consultation [hunch]
, in order to conduct the Diane Webster interview.

Finally, and in the sense of reiterating the suspicious attitude shown by Robert Murat, I venture still to state that, beyond having manifested an enormous knowledge about the dynamics inherent in the functioning of the "Ocean Club Garden" (in which the events under investigation had taken place) and of the routines followed by the McCann family and their companions during their respective stays in in Praia da Luz, he has tried persistently to influence the conduct of the present investigation, suggesting various analyses the agreement with which [i.e. had they agreed to follow those suggested lines of inquiry] could be intended to impute the consummation of the present illegal act
[the missing child] to foreign third parties [i.e. to put the blame on, or to attribute the blame to, outside foreigners].

The above being exposed
[laid bare] - and without intending in any way to place in question the competence of the above individual, nor the slightest imputation that that [my suspicions]was what he wanted to be [actually intendedto do] - I have to bring the above incidents to your attention, in order for you to determine what may be appropriate.

11 May 2007


Inspector
Pedro Varanda
« Last Edit: March 31, 2015, 08:21:46 PM by DCI »
Kate's 500 Mile Cycle Challenge

https://www.justgiving.com/KateMcCann/

Offline sadie

Re: Who was the Irish teenager who saw Gerry and Jez talking?
« Reply #272 on: April 01, 2015, 02:01:43 AM »
Correct Brietta.

Translators note - -
I must make it clear that this officer, while doing his clear professional duty, was, of necessity, couching much of his statement in a very diplomatic manner. Some of his phrasing I have managed to keep word-for-word, whereas other parts I have had to cut directly to the chase because it is simply too tortuous for me to convert word-for-word into English.
As usual my inline explanatory comments are in square brackets.

Processo page 960-961
Service Information document dated 11 May 2007 from Inspector Pedro Varanda relating to an informal conversation with Robert Murat

As you will know, Sir, on this day at 11h30, there appeared before the undersigned and (lady) Inspector Patricia Duarte, a British citizen called Diane Webster, holder of UK passport XXXXXXX, in order to hear her witness statement.

In the course of an informal approach that preceeded that work, it was determined that she was not conversant in Portuguese, written or spoken, and the service of an English-speaking interpreter was therefore called for.

In this function appeared a British citizen, Robert J.Q.E. Murat (duly identified in the files from previous work), official resident of Casa Liliana, Rua Ramalhete, Praia da Luz, Lagos.

The work [the DW interview] being concluded, and during an informal conversation that the undersigned began with that interpreter (as would be characteristic in this type of situation), Robert Murat displayed an unusual curiosity about the investigation that was developing around the disappearance of the minor Madeleine McCann that occurred on 3 May 2007.

As an example, it will be proper to point out that he has insistently and repeatedly questioned me about the identity of possible suspects, about the strategy outlined by the lead coordinator of the investigation and the work that might possibly have been considered for the coming days.
Before
[faced with] such an attitude, that was so unusual and absolutely inappropriate that I immediately became highly suspicious, I always countered [ducked the questions], insistently requesting that person to be aware of the contractual duties pertaining to the role which he has assumed in this investigation, pointing out that it was presently the inquiry phase, and, naturally, covered by judicial secrecy.

It behoves me further to state that that suspicion became even more consolidated, following the fact that I became aware that Robert Murat would covertly attempt to catch glimpses of various procedural pieces
[items being prepared for the case file] that make up the present inquiry, to the point that I followed my own consultation [hunch]
, in order to conduct the Diane Webster interview.

Finally, and in the sense of reiterating the suspicious attitude shown by Robert Murat, I venture still to state that, beyond having manifested an enormous knowledge about the dynamics inherent in the functioning of the "Ocean Club Garden" (in which the events under investigation had taken place) and of the routines followed by the McCann family and their companions during their respective stays in in Praia da Luz, he has tried persistently to influence the conduct of the present investigation, suggesting various analyses the agreement with which [i.e. had they agreed to follow those suggested lines of inquiry] could be intended to impute the consummation of the present illegal act
[the missing child] to foreign third parties [i.e. to put the blame on, or to attribute the blame to, outside foreigners].

The above being exposed
[laid bare] - and without intending in any way to place in question the competence of the above individual, nor the slightest imputation that that [my suspicions]was what he wanted to be [actually intendedto do] - I have to bring the above incidents to your attention, in order for you to determine what may be appropriate.

11 May 2007


Inspector
Pedro Varanda


How interesting DCI.
I have never seen that before



Offline Benice

Re: Who was the Irish teenager who saw Gerry and Jez talking?
« Reply #273 on: April 01, 2015, 08:43:22 AM »
Not according to Gonc plus she never came out and said it wasn't him either did she?  In her rogatory statement which she waffled through when it came to the undercover observation of Murat crossing the same road junction she admits he walked like the carrier.  Given that Robert Murat always wears glasses I don't see how she could have had any doubts or was she being influenced from behind doors by those three from the tapas who had claimed to have seen him lurking around block 5 on the morning after Maddie's disappearance?

Can you give a cite for that claim Angelo?

How could she be influenced by the other members of the group when they had no idea he was being investigated until they saw his face on TV AFTER he was made an Arguido -  which was after the ID parade.    It was only AFTER  they found out he had been made an Arguido that  they discussed it with JT and told the police that they had seen him on 3rd May.

The group were not the only people to claim to have seen Murat on the night of the 3rd .  - I believe there were 3/4 others -  including Silvia Batista who was supposed attend the 'confrontation' meeting with Murat and the 3 group members, but failed to turn up.

Why would Kate state in her book that Amaral's claim that JT had identified RM was completely untrue, if she knew there were witnesses who could prove that to be a lie.  i.e. the policemen with JT during the ID parade - and possibly an interpreter?    Why didn't Amaral shout it from the rooftops that she had lied in her book and he could prove it?

Why isn't this claimed identification by JT mentioned in the AG report in his comments on why Robert Murat had been made an arguido?   Surely a positive identification of him as the man seen walking away with a child would be a major reason for him being made an Arguido  - and yet he doesn't mention it.

The only person who has claimed JT formally identified Murat is Amaral in his book and numerous interviews - when IIRC no-one has ever asked him any awkward questions about it - like     ''Why would you tell your men to send JT  home instead of bringing her in to make a witness statement over something so massively important ?''  or -    'Why is there no mention by the AG of JT's positive identification of Murat as a major reason why he was made an arguido?

IIRC the reason JT gave for it not being possible to identify Murat one way or the other -  was because despite several attempts -  not once (for various reasons) during the ID parade did she ever get a clear view of him.

Amarals claim that JT made a FORMAL identification of Murat on that day is about as true as his claim that he'd met the McCanns.   That didn't happen either. 

The notion that innocence prevails over guilt – when there is no evidence to the contrary – is what separates civilization from barbarism.    Unfortunately, there are remains of barbarism among us.    Until very recently, it headed the PJ in Portimão. I hope he was the last one.
                                               Henrique Monteiro, chief editor, Expresso, Portugal

Offline pathfinder73

Re: Who was the Irish teenager who saw Gerry and Jez talking?
« Reply #274 on: April 01, 2015, 10:16:15 AM »
Can you give a cite for that claim Angelo?

How could she be influenced by the other members of the group when they had no idea he was being investigated until they saw his face on TV AFTER he was made an Arguido -  which was after the ID parade.    It was only AFTER  they found out he had been made an Arguido that  they discussed it with JT and told the police that they had seen him on 3rd May.

The group were not the only people to claim to have seen Murat on the night of the 3rd .  - I believe there were 3/4 others -  including Silvia Batista who was supposed attend the 'confrontation' meeting with Murat and the 3 group members, but failed to turn up.

Why would Kate state in her book that Amaral's claim that JT had identified RM was completely untrue, if she knew there were witnesses who could prove that to be a lie.  i.e. the policemen with JT during the ID parade - and possibly an interpreter?    Why didn't Amaral shout it from the rooftops that she had lied in her book and he could prove it?

Why isn't this claimed identification by JT mentioned in the AG report in his comments on why Robert Murat had been made an arguido?   Surely a positive identification of him as the man seen walking away with a child would be a major reason for him being made an Arguido  - and yet he doesn't mention it.

The only person who has claimed JT formally identified Murat is Amaral in his book and numerous interviews - when IIRC no-one has ever asked him any awkward questions about it - like     ''Why would you tell your men to send JT  home instead of bringing her in to make a witness statement over something so massively important ?''  or -    'Why is there no mention by the AG of JT's positive identification of Murat as a major reason why he was made an arguido?

IIRC the reason JT gave for it not being possible to identify Murat one way or the other -  was because despite several attempts -  not once (for various reasons) during the ID parade did she ever get a clear view of him.

Amarals claim that JT made a FORMAL identification of Murat on that day is about as true as his claim that he'd met the McCanns.   That didn't happen either.

Kate's book is not official. Far from it. If they need a defence.............
JT said it was that man. That man crossing the road was Murat and the morning raid on his home immediately happened after.

Murat and Raj Balu walking together and Neil Berry in front.



« Last Edit: April 01, 2015, 10:32:30 AM by pathfinder73 »
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline Benice

Re: Who was the Irish teenager who saw Gerry and Jez talking?
« Reply #275 on: April 01, 2015, 10:56:07 AM »
Kate's book is not official. Far from it. If they need a defence.............
JT said it was that man. That man crossing the road was Murat and the morning raid on his home immediately happened after.

Murat and Raj Balu walking together and Neil Berry in front.





Kates book may not be 'official', but she is hardly going to deliberately include lies which can easily be exposed as lies in it is she?  Her book would have been dead in the water as soon as it was proved she lied.   But not a peep from Amaral.

Your claim that she did say it was Murat she saw is based on a few words in a rogatory statement - which I believe was an unfinished sentence. 

If at any time during that interview the Police Officer asking the questions thought she was saying it was Murat she saw - then why didn't she question her further on that?   Surely that would need to be clarified as she would be contradicting all of her other comments about Murat?   IMO she didn't ask for clarification because she knew JT was not talking about Murat when she said ''I just thought it was'' - which IMO should have been typed as ''I just thought it was..............''  to denote an unfinished sentence.   However, the typist never does that and only uses full stops - even when it is patently obvious that a sentence is unfinished.     

The notion that innocence prevails over guilt – when there is no evidence to the contrary – is what separates civilization from barbarism.    Unfortunately, there are remains of barbarism among us.    Until very recently, it headed the PJ in Portimão. I hope he was the last one.
                                               Henrique Monteiro, chief editor, Expresso, Portugal

Offline faithlilly

Re: Who was the Irish teenager who saw Gerry and Jez talking?
« Reply #276 on: April 01, 2015, 11:32:08 AM »
Kates book may not be 'official', but she is hardly going to deliberately include lies which can easily be exposed as lies in it is she?  Her book would have been dead in the water as soon as it was proved she lied.   But not a peep from Amaral.

Your claim that she did say it was Murat she saw is based on a few words in a rogatory statement - which I believe was an unfinished sentence. 

If at any time during that interview the Police Officer asking the questions thought she was saying it was Murat she saw - then why didn't she question her further on that?   Surely that would need to be clarified as she would be contradicting all of her other comments about Murat?   IMO she didn't ask for clarification because she knew JT was not talking about Murat when she said ''I just thought it was'' - which IMO should have been typed as ''I just thought it was..............''  to denote an unfinished sentence.   However, the typist never does that and only uses full stops - even when it is patently obvious that a sentence is unfinished.     

Yet you believe Amaral included in his book an identification that could be discredited by the police officers involved in the van surveillance, not least of all Bob Small who seems to have been quite friendly with the McCanns. If Tanner hadn't identified Murat why hasn't Small spoken out ? Summers had a wonderful chance to clear the alleged misunderstanding up while writing his book by asking for an interview with Small so why didn't he ?
Brietta posted on 10/04/2022 “But whether or not that is the reason behind the delay I am certain that Brueckner's trial is going to take place.”

Let’s count the months, shall we?

Offline Carana

Re: Who was the Irish teenager who saw Gerry and Jez talking?
« Reply #277 on: April 01, 2015, 11:41:43 AM »
Yet you believe Amaral included in his book an identification that could be discredited by the police officers involved in the van surveillance, not least of all Bob Small who seems to have been quite friendly with the McCanns. If Tanner hadn't identified Murat why hasn't Small spoken out ? Summers had a wonderful chance to clear the alleged misunderstanding up while writing his book by asking for an interview with Small so why didn't he ?

Erm... because he isn't allowed to discuss the investigation with the media?

ferryman

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Re: Who was the Irish teenager who saw Gerry and Jez talking?
« Reply #278 on: April 01, 2015, 11:45:58 AM »
Yet you believe Amaral included in his book an identification that could be discredited by the police officers involved in the van surveillance, not least of all Bob Small who seems to have been quite friendly with the McCanns. If Tanner hadn't identified Murat why hasn't Small spoken out ? Summers had a wonderful chance to clear the alleged misunderstanding up while writing his book by asking for an interview with Small so why didn't he ?

Out of curiosity, which British officers have spoken out (post the shelved enquiry)?

Indeed, I'm fairly certain British police officers involved in the investigation are legally prohibited from discussing details ...

Prior has never gone on record to deny being contradicted by Amaral about interpretation of the forensic results, for example ...
« Last Edit: April 01, 2015, 11:49:00 AM by ferryman »

ferryman

  • Guest
Re: Who was the Irish teenager who saw Gerry and Jez talking?
« Reply #279 on: April 01, 2015, 11:49:44 AM »
Erm... because he isn't allowed to discuss the investigation with the media?

That's the concise version ...

Offline Carana

Re: Who was the Irish teenager who saw Gerry and Jez talking?
« Reply #280 on: April 01, 2015, 11:53:30 AM »
Out of curiosity, which British officers have spoken out (post the shelved enquiry)?

Baggott in the Leveson inquiry, mainly to justify why he felt it inappropriate to correct the media on the PJ's flawed understanding of some aspects to preserve inter-jurisdictional police cooperation.

Offline faithlilly

Re: Who was the Irish teenager who saw Gerry and Jez talking?
« Reply #281 on: April 01, 2015, 12:02:29 PM »
Erm... because he isn't allowed to discuss the investigation with the media?

Isn't he ? Then maybe that's why Kate felt safe to misrepresent Tanner's identification in her book.
Brietta posted on 10/04/2022 “But whether or not that is the reason behind the delay I am certain that Brueckner's trial is going to take place.”

Let’s count the months, shall we?

ferryman

  • Guest
Re: Who was the Irish teenager who saw Gerry and Jez talking?
« Reply #282 on: April 01, 2015, 12:06:04 PM »
Isn't he ? Then maybe that's why Kate felt safe to misrepresent Tanner's identification in her book.

Kate didn't.

Offline pathfinder73

Re: Who was the Irish teenager who saw Gerry and Jez talking?
« Reply #283 on: April 01, 2015, 12:11:07 PM »
Kates book may not be 'official', but she is hardly going to deliberately include lies which can easily be exposed as lies in it is she?  Her book would have been dead in the water as soon as it was proved she lied.   But not a peep from Amaral.

Your claim that she did say it was Murat she saw is based on a few words in a rogatory statement - which I believe was an unfinished sentence. 

If at any time during that interview the Police Officer asking the questions thought she was saying it was Murat she saw - then why didn't she question her further on that?   Surely that would need to be clarified as she would be contradicting all of her other comments about Murat?   IMO she didn't ask for clarification because she knew JT was not talking about Murat when she said ''I just thought it was'' - which IMO should have been typed as ''I just thought it was..............''  to denote an unfinished sentence.   However, the typist never does that and only uses full stops - even when it is patently obvious that a sentence is unfinished.     

"I dashed over to the second bed, on the other side of the travel cots where the twins slept on, oblivious, and looked out through the window."

That covers the finger prints. No mention of doing this in her statement.

"At 9.30pm I stood up to go and make our second check. Almost simultaneously, Matt got to his feet to see to Grace."

Matt left at 9:25 not 9:30

"At 10pm I went back to the apartment myself"

Matt said it was 9:50 when she left

The 30 minute checks add up to 10pm. This is not rocket science!
« Last Edit: April 01, 2015, 12:16:55 PM by pathfinder73 »
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline faithlilly

Re: Who was the Irish teenager who saw Gerry and Jez talking?
« Reply #284 on: April 01, 2015, 12:19:40 PM »
Kate didn't.

Didn't she ? How are we to know ?
Brietta posted on 10/04/2022 “But whether or not that is the reason behind the delay I am certain that Brueckner's trial is going to take place.”

Let’s count the months, shall we?