The Jersey Child Abuse Investigation and the EVRD deployment.

[Redblossom]

Well, seeing as its groundhog day again

Lenny Harper should know what was going on HE was the investigating officer


Listen to him here from 6.00 and the fable of the coconut! And other disgusting goings in in ths case!

[Serendipity]

Where has it been stated that either dog was desensitised to other decomposing substances? I have no problem with Keela, as she trained solely on human blood, but Eddie's training - in the absence of any information to the contrary - seems to have been able to react to a wider spectrum.

Unless you have information to the contrary, I'm not aware of any recorded incident in which Keela was sent in before Eddie aside from the frankly bizarre clothes episode in the Lagos gym. If it is indeed normal practice for Eddie to be sent in to detect the "haystack" before sending in Keela to detect "the needle", then Eddie's reaction to the sex tissues would have occurred prior to Keela's. The point being, if that is the case, is that Grime had stated that the clean-up tissues were within Eddie's repertoire before Keela's reaction. If there is evidence to the contrary, then I'd be happy to read it and revise my understanding of the issue. If that is not what occurred, then the situation is not clear, IMO.

Eddie was trained on human blood and later cadaver scent and Keela purely to human blood. Martin himself told me that both dogs were deconditioned to urine, semen and faeces when I asked him about the alerts to the tissues.  By all means email him at his company and ask the question yourself and he will confirm this.

Suggest you read this too: 

http://www.csst.org/forensic_evidence_canines.html

"specifically trained to indicate a scent source as being from decomposed human tissue. Such animals are also trained to exclude (deconditioned to) the scent of human urine, feces, and semen and will not alert on residual scent from a live human; and have never been trained to locate any scent other than that of decomposed human tissue."

Eddie was an E.V.R.D (Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog) and was way more than just a cadaver dog and was teamed with Keela as a failsafe method of being able to differentiate between blood and cadaver scent alerts.  The tandem teaming would have been pointless if they had not both been deconditioned to anything other than cadaver scent and blood, wouldn't it? They both would have been alerting all over the place!

From Martin's statement:

"The tasking for this operation was as per my normal Standard Operating
Procedures. The dogs are deployed as search assets to secure evidence and
locate human remains or Human blood."

The tasking for Operation Rectangle was the same for Operation Task as defined above. 

The forensic strategy was implemented with the following results in Jersey.

EVRD – positive indication.
SOCO visual – positive.
Blood dog - positive indication.
Visual – positive
UV – negative (items removed prior to screening).
Quasar - negative

Having trained Eddie, Martin will have been confident to state that the alert to the tissue by Eddie was within his repetoire because he will have been aware that it would only have been either blood or cadaver scent that he was alerting to.  Keela's alert also will have confirmed for him that it was blood as she was not trained to alert to cadaver scent and having trained them both he knew that neither of them would ever alert to urine, faeces or semen.

[ferryman]

Martin himself told me that both dogs were deconditioned to urine, semen and faeces ...

You don't need to decondition a dog to anything.

You need to condition a dog to stuff.

You do that by training.

[Mr Gray]

Eddie was trained on human blood and later cadaver scent and Keela purely to human blood. Martin himself told me that both dogs were deconditioned to urine, semen and faeces when I asked him about the alerts to the tissues.  By all means email him at his company and ask the question yourself and he will confirm this.

Suggest you read this too: 

http://www.csst.org/forensic_evidence_canines.html

"specifically trained to indicate a scent source as being from decomposed human tissue. Such animals are also trained to exclude (deconditioned to) the scent of human urine, feces, and semen and will not alert on residual scent from a live human; and have never been trained to locate any scent other than that of decomposed human tissue."

Eddie was an E.V.R.D (Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog) and was way more than just a cadaver dog and was teamed with Keela as a failsafe method of being able to differentiate between blood and cadaver scent alerts.  The tandem teaming would have been pointless if they had not both been deconditioned to anything other than cadaver scent and blood, wouldn't it? They both would have been alerting all over the place!

From Martin's statement:

"The tasking for this operation was as per my normal Standard Operating
Procedures. The dogs are deployed as search assets to secure evidence and
locate human remains or Human blood."

The tasking for Operation Rectangle was the same for Operation Task as defined above. 

The forensic strategy was implemented with the following results in Jersey.

EVRD – positive indication.
SOCO visual – positive.
Blood dog - positive indication.
Visual – positive
UV – negative (items removed prior to screening).
Quasar - negative

Having trained Eddie, Martin will have been confident to state that the alert to the tissue by Eddie was within his repetoire because he will have been aware that it would only have been either blood or cadaver scent that he was alerting to.  Keela's alert also will have confirmed for him that it was blood as she was not trained to alert to cadaver scent and having trained them both he knew that neither of them would ever alert to urine, faeces or semen.

It seems that you don't understand the role of the dogs as defined by grime...



Their purpose outlined in red...the dogs did not secure evidence...did not locate human remains but did locate blodd...belonging to Gerry McCann...a complete failure to find any evidence

[Redblossom]

Some bedtime educational reading for some

http://www.voiceforchildren.blogspot.pt/2012/03/exclusive-footage-of-eddie-cadaver-dog.html

[John]

The EVRD and the coconut shell revisited by popular request.

[AnneGuedes]

then Eddie's reaction to the sex tissues would have occurred prior to Keela's.

Can you please send a link to those tissues. Where were they found actually ? I can't find them in the files.

[Serendipity]

Can you please send a link to those tissues. Where were they found actually ? I can't find them in the files.

Hope this helps Anne :) This is what I posted last night

http://voiceforprotest.blogspot.co.uk/2010/03/operation-rectangle-summary-report.html

The report says -

'VT / 9 Trench and gun emplacement containing small personnel shelter. Forensic examination revealed recently deposited tissues that appeared to have been used to ‘clean up following sexual intercourse’. It would appear that the shelter had been used as a venue for courting couples. This alert is within the trained parameters of the dog’s repertoire and is a satisfactory explanation of the alert.
Base of an oak tree planted as a memorial to the two sons of Mr Hamon, Flat 2 Delborgho Lodge, Upper Clarendon Road, St Hellier. The cremated remains of the two adult sons had been previously scattered just under the surface of the ground and the tree planted as a permanent memorial together with a plaque. This alert is within the trained parameters of the dog’s repertoire and is a satisfactory explanation of the alert.
There being no other points of interest, intelligence led excavation of the site commenced to locate and investigate defensive positions by excavation, forensic examination and canine screening.'

And

'V/T 9 Re-enforced concrete machine gun post and protective trench, personnel shelter attached. Earth and debris removed by hand and plant machinery to allow access.

The forensic strategy was implemented with the following results.

EVRD – positive indication.
SOCO visual – positive.
Blood dog - positive indication.
Visual – positive
UV – negative (items removed prior to screening).
Quasar - negative

Positive indications confirmed as being recently deposited tissues used to clean up after sex by unknown persons. Offences not suspected at this stage. Retained as exhibit should there be future reports of offences. There will be no forensic submission at this stage.'

Eddie was trained as follows - source http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_RIGATORY.htm

'The dog EVRD is trained using whole and disintegrated material, blood, bone tissue, teeth, etc. and decomposed cross-contaminants. The dog will recognize all or parts of a human cadaver. He is not trained for 'live' human odours; no trained dog will recognize the smell of 'fresh blood'. They find, however, and give the alert for dried blood from a live human being.'

And Keela - source http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_RIGATORY.htm

'The dog that alerts to human blood is trained exclusively for this purpose, and includes its components, plasma, red cells, white cells and platelets. Given the nature of the training, the dog will not alert to urine, saliva, semen sweat, nasal secretion, vaginal secretion or human skin unless these are mixed with blood.'

Eddie and Keela were used in tandem as a failsafe method to eliminate any chance of false positives. Eddie's original training was to human blood and latterly and mostly to cadaver scent using pigs and human cadavers and Keela purely to detect human blood.

Ergo Eddie would be sent in first to a location as aprt of an investigation to check and if he alerted then Keela was sent in to see if she also alerted. If Keela also alerted then the alert was to blood as that is all that Keela is trained to detect. If she did not alert too then Eddie was alerting to cadaver scent.

In relation to the tissues found at VT/9 in HDLG both dogs alerted which means there was blood them, no matter how small it was and both dogs detected it as that is how they were trained. Both dogs alert = blood whereas Eddie on his own and no alert from Keela = cadaver scent. The tandem working of the dogs is what made them so reliable.

Martin's Rogatory statement http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_RIGATORY.htm and the Op Rectangle Report http://voiceforprotest.blogspot.co.uk/2010/03/operation-rectangle-summary-report.html detail that all of the above is within the trained parameters of the dog’s repertoire.

[AnneGuedes]

Hope this helps Anne :) This is what I posted last night

Oh thank you, Serendipity, I read your very interesting posts of last night, luckily not deleted.
My question was for Carana who insists that Eddie reacted to sex tissues. I can't find a mention of them in the McCann Files

[Serendipity]

Oh thank you, Serendipity, I read your very interesting posts of last night, luckily not deleted.
My question was for Carana who insists that Eddie reacted to sex tissues. I can't find a mention of them in the McCann Files

Ah sorry for jumping in Anne :)  I hadn't realised Carana has said that Eddie had alerted to sex tissues in PDL.  I look forward to their response as I too have never seen anything in the PJ files about such an alert

[Estuarine]

Oh no! not another woofer thread. This site has turned into bleedin' Crufts. The dog saga is a bit like an opera [if any here are familiar] the basic story can be told in about 30 seconds.

[ferryman]

Oh dear, you really do not understand how the dogs work do you?  Eddie alerted to a location where bones had previously lay and you ask what relevance there is?

You need to re-read my post.

If Grime had done his job properly, he'd have had Eddie screen the area before testing the coconut to eliminate prior scents.

[slartibartfast]

You need to re-read my post.

If Grime had done his job properly, he'd have had Eddie screen the area before testing the coconut to eliminate prior scents.

??

Doesn't make sense?

[Serendipity]

You need to re-read my post.

If Grime had done his job properly, he'd have had Eddie screen the area before testing the coconut to eliminate prior scents.

Eddie didn't alert to 'coconut' He alerted to cadaver scent.  As I explained last night, he alerted to an area of ground where bones had been previously found by workman before laying concrete.  Those bones had been binned but the gound that once contained them would still have been an area of interest to Eddie. So he alerted as we know and when the area was examined an object was found which was thought to be part of a childs skull but which later magically turned into a piece of coconut.  Now I personally do not beleive that it was coconut but if it was, the following makes perfect sense to me, as it also should to you.

'coconut husk is wood and wood will absorb odours. If the husk was in the presence of human remains material for years it will actually build up and retain large amounts of odour as a cumulative effect. The fact that the coconut is not human does not matter. It's the odour the dog alerts to, not the material on which the odour is deposited.'

[stephen25000]

Eddie didn't alert to 'coconut' He alerted to cadaver scent.  As I explained last night, he alerted to an area of ground where bones had been previously found by workman before laying concrete.  Those bones had been binned but the gound that once contained them would still have been an area of interest to Eddie. So he alerted as we know and when the area was examined an object was found which was thought to be part of a childs skull but which later magically turned into a piece of coconut.  Now I personally do not beleive that it was coconut but if it was, the following makes perfect sense to me, as it also should to you.

'coconut husk is wood and wood will absorb odours. If the husk was in the presence of human remains material for years it will actually build up and retain large amounts of odour as a cumulative effect. The fact that the coconut is not human does not matter. It's the odour the dog alerts to, not the material on which the odour is deposited.'