The other occupants of Apt 5a before and after the McCanns visit.

[Carew]

Now that is an interesting point you make Carew  Quote -   'perhaps you could ascertain 'for sure' that the clothing in which he lay dead in a hospital bed was for a long enough time for cadaverine to form in the first place' unquote.

If as you say there needs to be a length of time for cadavarine to form,    how long would Madeleine have had to be kept in the apartment for Cadavarine to form on the floor of the bedroom,  also on Cuddle Cat?

According to Mr. Grime it is evident straight away after death.

The point was that the clothing worn by the Grandfather as he lay dead in hospital and the circumstances surrounding this speculation about where those garments ended up are actually proveable by investigation.

Maybe you should concentrate on that, since you brought it up.

Do you think the Drs. McCann might have done the research and found the speculation groundless, otherwise we might have heard about it as part of the justification for the alerts.

[AnneGuedes]

Do you think the Drs. McCann might have done the research and found the speculation groundless, otherwise we might have heard about it as part of the justification for the alerts.

Very true ! It couldn't have been worse, though contradictory, than the claim, scientifically proved false, that VOCs disappear after a month.

[Lace]

The point was that the clothing worn by the Grandfather as he lay dead in hospital and the circumstances surrounding this speculation about where those garments ended up are actually proveable by investigation.

Maybe you should concentrate on that, since you brought it up.

Do you think the Drs. McCann might have done the research and found the speculation groundless, otherwise we might have heard about it as part of the justification for the alerts.

By the look of it SY have dismissed the dogs alerts.

Who knows what Eddie was alerting to,  he certainly didn't alert to the clothes when the McCann's were moved to the other apartment.   Eddie was sent to search the second apartment and failed to alert to the clothes in that apartment,   he later alerted to them in the warehouse,  all very strange.

[Serendipity]

There she goes again.  How many times Serendipity, Tasmin stayed in 5a along with mum and gran.  Even her dad would know that when she said so to the detectives who interviewed her.

From Tamsin's statement -

'She also mentions that she lived in the apartment where the missing child was staying, that belonged to her Grandmother, who is already deceased. That she didn't actually reside there, but spent extensive and repeated periods of time there, with her Grandmother and her Mother. The apartment was bought in 1994 and sold in 2002 and therefore she knows it perfectly, both from the inside and from the outside. 2002'

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/T_M_S_AGE_12.htm

From Ruth McCann - current owner of 5a -

'The apartment is owned by Ruth Margaret McCann, who is unrelated to the McCanns according to family spokesperson Clarence Mitchell.
 
The apartment A, number 5, locate at Rua Dr. Agostinho da Silva, Montes da Luz Urbanization, Praia da luz, is registered with the number 3666.
 
In 2001 the house was bought by a kind of society belonging to Daniel John Aldred, his daughter Donna Michelle Aldred (from his first marriage), Michael William McCann and his wife, Ruth Margaret McCann.
 
Michael McCann born in Devonport, Plymouth was a widower when he married Margaret Ruth Pittaway, 53, who was also widowed in 1987.
 
In 2005, Michael and Ruth bought the part of the Aldred couple giving each of them 50% of the apartment.
 
Later in July 2006 Michael McCann died in Liverpool and in November of the same year Ruth McCann inherited his part becoming the only proprietor.'
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id21.html

Why does Tamsin claim her grandmother owned 5a?

Brian Kennedy himself confirmed that the family owned 5b, not 5a.

Even if Tamsin and her mother ever stayed in 5a, there is absolutely nothing connected with the Sillence family to explain the cadaver alerts in 5a.  PJ enquiries proved that no-one had died in 5a prior to Madeleine going missing and if grandad died in hospital, why on earth would his jammies be taken to 5a and not to his own apartment 5b? If grandad was brough back to his home before burial, he would have been taken back to 5b

As I said, strawclutching in the extreme.

[AnneGuedes]

From Tamsin's statement -

'She also mentions that she lived in the apartment where the missing child was staying, that belonged to her Grandmother, who is already deceased. That she didn't actually reside there, but spent extensive and repeated periods of time there, with her Grandmother and her Mother. The apartment was bought in 1994 and sold in 2002 and therefore she knows it perfectly, both from the inside and from the outside. 2002'

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/T_M_S_AGE_12.htm

From Ruth McCann - current owner of 5a -

'The apartment is owned by Ruth Margaret McCann, who is unrelated to the McCanns according to family spokesperson Clarence Mitchell.
 
The apartment A, number 5, locate at Rua Dr. Agostinho da Silva, Montes da Luz Urbanization, Praia da luz, is registered with the number 3666.
 
In 2001 the house was bought by a kind of society belonging to Daniel John Aldred, his daughter Donna Michelle Aldred (from his first marriage), Michael William McCann and his wife, Ruth Margaret McCann.
 
Michael McCann born in Devonport, Plymouth was a widower when he married Margaret Ruth Pittaway, 53, who was also widowed in 1987.
 
In 2005, Michael and Ruth bought the part of the Aldred couple giving each of them 50% of the apartment.
 
Later in July 2006 Michael McCann died in Liverpool and in November of the same year Ruth McCann inherited his part becoming the only proprietor.'
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id21.html

Why does Tamsin claim her grandmother owned 5a?

Brian Kennedy himself confirmed that the family owned 5b, not 5a.

Even if Tamsin and her mother ever stayed in 5a, there is absolutely nothing connected with the Sillence family to explain the cadaver alerts in 5a.  PJ enquiries proved that no-one had died in 5a prior to Madeleine going missing and if grandad died in hospital, why on earth would his jammies be taken to 5a and not to his own apartment 5b? If grandad was brough back to his home before burial, he would have been taken back to 5b

As I said, strawclutching in the extreme.

I do admire you, SerenEdipity.
By law, in Portugal and in France, death clothing is incinerated for salubrity reasons.

[Lace]

Very true ! It couldn't have been worse, though contradictory, than the claim, scientifically proved false, that VOCs disappear after a month.

I wouldn't scoff Anne -

Unfortunately, in such a situation the trier of fact may easily be misled as to both the accuracy and precision of the dog's actions: Accuracy in the sense that the dog (depending upon its level of training) may be reacting to something other than residual scent from decomposed human tissue; precision in that the dog may be reacting correctly to the scent of decomposed human tissue, but imprecise in the sense that the dog is not differentiating between whose decomposed human tissue is giving the scent. Further, there may be legitimate reasons for the scent being there: someone may have been injured and left bloody clothing there, someone may have left a used sanitary napkin, etc. Our research demonstrates that residual scent from decomposed human tissue persists in a closed building for many months at levels sufficient to cause a trained dog to alert.

[Lace]

I think the most telling thing about this thread is that dissenters are finally accepting that Eddie definitely alerted to the scent of death in 5a.  Why else would they be scrabbling around trying to explain the alerts with such ludicrous scenarios as have been suggested re grandpa's jammies.  I must admit though, this latest bout of strawclutching beats seabass down the back of the sofa, Gerry having bad breath or Kate having bacterial vaginosis.

So are you suggesting that the people who actually TRAIN these dogs don't know what they are talking about?

[Lace]

The last paragraph on that paper says -

7) Training for dogs used in search-and-rescue for lost persons (cadaver dogs) and for general field searching to find visible decomposed remains is generally appropriate and effective for that type of situation, but not for highly specialized situations or to build probable cause based solely upon residual scent.

[Wonderfulspam]

And still we wait for a single example of a missing person found alive after a death dog indicated that they weren't.

[Serendipity]

So are you suggesting that the people who actually TRAIN these dogs don't know what they are talking about?

Que?

The point I was making is why the need to find all kinds of bizarre excuses to explain away Eddies' alerts if they are of 'no value and are meaningless' according to dissenters on here.

That there is a scramble to do just that, is, in itself, very telling :)

I'm off out for a bit.  Have a lovely rest of your afternoon :)

[sadie]

A flippant approach is taking at face value a post on another forum and bringing it here suggesting a dead mans pajamas could account for a cadaver alert in an apartment that he had never lived in. A flippant approach is not doing your research to verify exactly where that man lived when the information is contained in the files before jumping to wild and illogical conclusions.

We dont know who owned 5A at the time, nor 5B, do we?.  Maybe the two apartments were owned by the family?  Maybe they were both long term rented?

We just dont know, do we?

But we do know that Tasmin spent long periods (Lived) in 5A.  Maybe she spent time in both apartments, but she has an indepth knowledge of 5A ... unless you are calling her a liar.

[Mr Moderator]

I do admire you, SerenEdipity.
By law, in Portugal and in France, death clothing is incinerated for salubrity reasons.

Yes, lots of things are supposed to happen by law in Portugal but that doesn't mean they did and by no means proves the argument in relation to items which the deceased may have come into contact with.

It is a possibility which cannot be discounted.

[AnneGuedes]

I wouldn't scoff Anne -

Unfortunately, in such a situation the trier of fact may easily be misled as to both the accuracy and precision of the dog's actions: Accuracy in the sense that the dog (depending upon its level of training) may be reacting to something other than residual scent from decomposed human tissue; precision in that the dog may be reacting correctly to the scent of decomposed human tissue, but imprecise in the sense that the dog is not differentiating between whose decomposed human tissue is giving the scent. Further, there may be legitimate reasons for the scent being there: someone may have been injured and left bloody clothing there, someone may have left a used sanitary napkin, etc. Our research demonstrates that residual scent from decomposed human tissue persists in a closed building for many months at levels sufficient to cause a trained dog to alert.

Who is scoffing, Lace ?
As we now know, the chemicals believed to create the ‘odour of death’, putrescence and cadaverine, last no longer than thirty days.

[Mr Moderator]

Why on earth would anyone come to that conclusion? If anyone is scratching at straws or scrabbling around I suggest it is you.

It has never been established what Eddie alerted to and as far as ownership of any apartment is concerned all you have managed to do is show that apartment 5a was bought around 2001.  It has no relevance to Tasmin and her mother staying there.

If apartment 5a was purchased by the syndicate in 2001 it could very well be that the take over didn't happen until 2002 as Tasmin recalled and especially if a deceased's estate was involved.  Without having sight of the land records most of this is pure speculation.

[Angelo222]

We dont know who owned 5A at the time, nor 5B, do we?.  Maybe the two apartments were owned by the family?  Maybe they were both long term rented?

We just dont know, do we?

But we do know that Tasmin spent long periods (Lived) in 5A.  Maybe she spent time in both apartments, but she has an indepth knowledge of 5A ... unless you are calling her a liar.

Good points Sadie.  A child never forgets his or her home and for her to mistake an end apartment for a mid apartment is too ridiculous for words.

What are the p.... scared of anyway?  Is the jammies theory getting under their skin?