Why was PC Grime and the specialist dogs deployed to Praia da Luz?

[Benice]

Irrelevant.

Were the Leicestershire Police in PDL when Madeleine disappeared ?

They didn't need to be.  It was the FLO who first noticed that the behaviour of Shannon Matthews mother was not conducive to the behaviour or reactions of a mother whose daughter had disappeared and so became suspicious.  She wasn't there either when Shannon disappeared.      That is what FLO's are trained to do.   

Why would you think that several Leicestershire FLO's were any less competent?

[Carana]

Really, that must be a first.  Never known stranger abduction of a cadaver before...have you?

The dogs were obviously brought in to search for signs that an unreported death took place in apartment 5a.

Hmmm. What Harrison stated concerning his remit seems to be a little different. Checking for the potential presence of a dead body within the perimeter of Zone 1 after three months seems more than timely. Starting from the epicentre and any known connections seems perfectly normal to me, although I still don't understand why VRDs weren't brought in in mid-May. Were proposals made and not accepted? If no proposals were made, the PJ could have surely asked any country that did have VRDs (including, but not exclusively, the UK) ... why (seemingly) didn't they?


This report considers solely the possibility that Madeleine McCann has been murdered and her body is concealed within the areas previously searched by Police in Zone 1 around Praia Da Luz. Other scenarios or possibilities may on request be considered and be subject of a further report.

[ferryman]

It would be interesting to have sight of your certificates of competence in this field.

The simultaneous presence of the two elements in a given place - blood and cadaver odours - is taken to indicate that a body has been there and that it's probably there that the death occurred.

(Goncalo Amaral)

To know that that (statement of Amaral's) is patently false, the only qualification you need is the ability to read.  And the only reference you need is to the Madeleine McCann investigation files.

Amaral didn't know what he was talking about, or (worse) set out to deceive

[pegasus]

The simultaneous presence of the two elements in a given place - blood and cadaver odours - is taken to indicate that a body has been there and that it's probably there that the death occurred.

(Goncalo Amaral)

To know that that (statement of Amaral's) is patently false, the only qualification you need is the ability to read.  And the only reference you need is to the Madeleine McCann investigation files.

Amaral didn't know what he was talking about, or (worse) set out to deceive

He says "indicate" (not "prove").
Do you think Amaral and the NPIA and the LP should have written off the dog indications in apartment and garden as meaningless and not requested the additional searches?

[sadie]

The simultaneous presence of the two elements in a given place - blood and cadaver odours - is taken to indicate that a body has been there and that it's probably there that the death occurredGoncalo Amaral)

To know that that (statement of Amaral's) is patently false, the only qualification you need is the ability to read.  And the only reference you need is to the Madeleine McCann investigation files.

Amaral didn't know what he was talking about, or (worse) set out to deceive

Some newer readers / posters on here may not know that if both dogs alert, then the most likely scenario is just blood and NOT cadavar nor a dead body having lain there.  Amaral is spouting nonsense to fit his theory.

The reason for that is because

Eddy alerts to Cadaver and Blood
Keela alerts just to Blood

So if they both alert then the most likely scenario is that it is a simple and very common blood alert.


To be reasonably sure of cadavar odour, or urine ..... etc.   
Eddie must alert, but Keela must also sniff and NOT alert.

The two dogs must work in unison to provide anything worth looking at.  One dog on its own proves nothing.

[xtina]

The achievements of the dog detectives are the result of a very long apprenticeship. It all starts with the selection of the best puppies when they are only a few months old. The most talented breed for this unusual "profession," is the Springer Spaniel. The trainer, Martin Grime, and his pupils undergo aptitude tests every year in order to obtain certificates proving their capability. In Great Britain, the police have no hesitation in calling in the specialist dog teams to assist in certain criminal investigations. Their skills are nowadays recognised by journalists, police and courts all over the world.


One must ask: would a person such as Mr Grime, whose professional livelihood depended on the 100% reliability of his dogs, proceed to suggest the past presence of a corpse at locations in the McCanns’ flat, and in their hired car, if Madeleine might still be alive somewhere?
 
 

She might have been found alive the next day
 
 

If so, Martin Grime’s professional credibility and his livelihood would have been ruined for ever

[Estuarine]

The achievements of the dog detectives are the result of a very long apprenticeship. It all starts with the selection of the best puppies when they are only a few months old. The most talented breed for this unusual "profession," is the Springer Spaniel. The trainer, Martin Grime, and his pupils undergo aptitude tests every year in order to obtain certificates proving their capability. In Great Britain, the police have no hesitation in calling in the specialist dog teams to assist in certain criminal investigations. Their skills are nowadays recognised by journalists, police and courts all over the world.


One must ask: would a person such as Mr Grime, whose professional livelihood depended on the 100% reliability of his dogs, proceed to suggest the past presence of a corpse at locations in the McCanns’ flat, and in their hired car, if Madeleine might still be alive somewhere?
 
 

She might have been found alive the next day
 
 

If so, Martin Grime’s professional credibility and his livelihood would have been ruined for ever

 

[John]

Some newer readers / posters on here may not know that if both dogs alert, then the most likely scenario is just blood and NOT cadaver nor a dead body having lain there.  Amaral is spouting nonsense to fit his theory.

The reason for that is because

Eddy alerts to Cadaver and Blood
Keela alerts just to Blood

So if they both alert then the most likely scenario is that it is a simple and very common blood alert.


To be reasonably sure of cadavar odour, or urine ..... etc.   
Eddie must alert, but Keela must also sniff and NOT alert.

The two dogs must work in unison to provide anything worth looking at.  One dog on its own proves nothing.

My own view is that Keela was the more useful of the two dogs since you knew what you had with her as she alerted to blood.  Eddie on the other hand alerted to blood and many other substances related to humans including human remains, body fluids and even incinerated remains or ash.

When they both alerted you could be sure you had blood, anything else was I fear just pie in the sky!

[Cariad]

red claimed yesterday that harrison reccommended all cars driven or hired by mccanns a friends

Huh, I've just trawled through yesterday's posts and can't see it. Could you link please?

http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2010/dec/13/wikileaks-madeleine-mccann-british-police

You've just got to love a whistle blower.

[sadie]

The achievements of the dog detectives are the result of a very long apprenticeship. It all starts with the selection of the best puppies when they are only a few months old. The most talented breed for this unusual "profession," is the Springer Spaniel. The trainer, Martin Grime, and his pupils undergo aptitude tests every year in order to obtain certificates proving their capability. In Great Britain, the police have no hesitation in calling in the specialist dog teams to assist in certain criminal investigations. Their skills are nowadays recognised by journalists, police and courts all over the world.


One must ask: would a person such as Mr Grime, whose professional livelihood depended on the 100% reliability of his dogs, proceed to suggest the past presence of a corpse at locations in the McCanns’ flat, and in their hired car, if Madeleine might still be alive somewhere?
 
 

She might have been found alive the next day
 
 

If so, Martin Grime’s professional credibility and his livelihood would have been ruined for ever

One thing is certain xtina and that is that the supposed cuddle cat alert was incorreect.  Martin Grime made a mistake.  The dog was alerting to something on the counter, NOT to CCat

[Benice]

The achievements of the dog detectives are the result of a very long apprenticeship. It all starts with the selection of the best puppies when they are only a few months old. The most talented breed for this unusual "profession," is the Springer Spaniel. The trainer, Martin Grime, and his pupils undergo aptitude tests every year in order to obtain certificates proving their capability. In Great Britain, the police have no hesitation in calling in the specialist dog teams to assist in certain criminal investigations. Their skills are nowadays recognised by journalists, police and courts all over the world.

One must ask: would a person such as Mr Grime, whose professional livelihood depended on the 100% reliability of his dogs, proceed to suggest the past presence of a corpse at locations in the McCanns’ flat, and in their hired car, if Madeleine might still be alive somewhere?
 
She might have been found alive the next day
 
If so, Martin Grime’s professional credibility and his livelihood would have been ruined for ever

I disagree.  Martin Grime could quite properly have claimed that his dog had alerted to something below ground -or residue which may have been decades old, or to a scent which had been innocently imported from some outside source - or by cross contamination.    Hence his repeated warnings that an alert meant nothing evidentially unless and until it was corroborated.

Not once did he suggest that a corpse had ever been present anywhere - only that 'cadaverscent' (which could also have come from living person)  may have been present.   

As long as there had been an alert - he was in a 'Win-Win' situation - whatever the outcome IMO.

[Carana]

Huh, I've just trawled through yesterday's posts and can't see it. Could you link please?

http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2010/dec/13/wikileaks-madeleine-mccann-british-police

You've just got to love a whistle blower.

But what whistle?

"Without delving into the details of the case, Ellis admitted that the British police had developed the current evidence against the McCann parents, and he stressed that authorities from both countries were working co-operatively."

It's a matter of public record that Harrison was in liaison with the PJ and proposed to get Grime to go over with his dogs, but there was nothing substantiated by the FSS, which also assisted.

In the meantime, what has been conspicuously ignored was:

In one of two cables referring to the McCann case, the US ambassador notes: "Madeleine McCann's disappearance in the south of Portugal in May 2007 has generated international media attention with controversy surrounding the Portuguese-led police investigation and the actions of Madeleine's parents."

He reported that his British counterpart thought "that the media frenzy was to be expected and was acceptable as long as government officials keep their comments behind closed doors".

[stephen25000]

The achievements of the dog detectives are the result of a very long apprenticeship. It all starts with the selection of the best puppies when they are only a few months old. The most talented breed for this unusual "profession," is the Springer Spaniel. The trainer, Martin Grime, and his pupils undergo aptitude tests every year in order to obtain certificates proving their capability. In Great Britain, the police have no hesitation in calling in the specialist dog teams to assist in certain criminal investigations. Their skills are nowadays recognised by journalists, police and courts all over the world.


One must ask: would a person such as Mr Grime, whose professional livelihood depended on the 100% reliability of his dogs, proceed to suggest the past presence of a corpse at locations in the McCanns’ flat, and in their hired car, if Madeleine might still be alive somewhere?
 
 

She might have been found alive the next day
 
 

If so, Martin Grime’s professional credibility and his livelihood would have been ruined for ever

 

Precisely Xtina.

[Carana]

The achievements of the dog detectives are the result of a very long apprenticeship. It all starts with the selection of the best puppies when they are only a few months old. The most talented breed for this unusual "profession," is the Springer Spaniel. The trainer, Martin Grime, and his pupils undergo aptitude tests every year in order to obtain certificates proving their capability. In Great Britain, the police have no hesitation in calling in the specialist dog teams to assist in certain criminal investigations. Their skills are nowadays recognised by journalists, police and courts all over the world.


One must ask: would a person such as Mr Grime, whose professional livelihood depended on the 100% reliability of his dogs, proceed to suggest the past presence of a corpse at locations in the McCanns’ flat, and in their hired car, if Madeleine might still be alive somewhere?
 
 

She might have been found alive the next day
 
 

If so, Martin Grime’s professional credibility and his livelihood would have been ruined for ever

Grime and his dogs arrived 3 months later, not the day after the disappearance. In the meantime, countless people had used the apartments and cars.

[stephen25000]

Grime and his dogs arrived 3 months later, not the day after the disappearance. In the meantime, countless people had used the apartments and cars.

Why don't you research cases where scents were picked up decades later, leading to identification of human remains ?