Author Topic: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.  (Read 103489 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline pegasus

Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
« Reply #405 on: March 28, 2014, 02:36:14 AM »
What do you mean "nothing odd about lack of alert ?"

I have difficulty making sense of your posts pegasus ...  forgive me for that,  perhaps I'm just not on your wave-length,  but could you be more precise  ?
Sorry I was answering pathfinders post but forgot to hit quote.
IMO there is nothing odd about there being no dog signal in the north bedroom.

icabodcrane

  • Guest
Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
« Reply #406 on: March 28, 2014, 02:41:36 AM »
Sorry I was answering pathfinders post but forgot to hit quote.
IMO there is nothing odd about there being no dog signal in the north bedroom.

The  'north'  bedroom  ?  ...  what is that   ? 

There were only two bedrooms in that apartment  ... one that Kate and Gerry McCann slept in ...  and one that their children slept in 

Let's keep it simple eh  ? 

Offline pegasus

Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
« Reply #407 on: March 28, 2014, 02:58:31 AM »
North bedroom is the one farthest away from the tapas restaurant.
It's the choice of each renting family who to put in each bedroom, both have two single beds, cots are moveable.

icabodcrane

  • Guest
Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
« Reply #408 on: March 28, 2014, 03:20:02 AM »
North bedroom is the one farthest away from the tapas restaurant.
It's the choice of each renting family who to put in each bedroom, both have two single beds, cots are moveable.
..

WHAT ! the room where the kids slept you mean  ? 

Why not just say that then  ? 


Offline Benice

Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
« Reply #409 on: March 28, 2014, 06:34:37 AM »
Thankyou for that pegasus

So we are agreed, then,  that Scotland Yard cannot, realistically,    'incorporate'  the  cadaver dog alerts into a theory  that involves an intruder killing Madeleine in the apartment    ?

Any such theory would,  necessarily,  have to  'presume'  that the dog  was wrong  ...  and there is simply no reason,  whilst Madeleine remains missing,  to presume the dog was  wrong,  is there  ?

Only if you presume that the scent Eddie alerted to was deposited in 5a on 3rd May.  However, there is no way of knowing when it got there.     Cross contamination could have occurred at any time during the months after Madeleine disappeared (or similarly - at some time before) - and have no connection whatsoever to the events of 3rd May as I am sure M. Grime would confirm.     

The dogs cannot know or indicate the date on which residue was deposited.

IMO therefore it isn't possible to claim as a fact that SY cannot theorise that an intruder may have killed Madeleine in the apartment without having to presume the dogs were wrong.    They could both be right.
 

 
The notion that innocence prevails over guilt – when there is no evidence to the contrary – is what separates civilization from barbarism.    Unfortunately, there are remains of barbarism among us.    Until very recently, it headed the PJ in Portimão. I hope he was the last one.
                                               Henrique Monteiro, chief editor, Expresso, Portugal

ferryman

  • Guest
Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
« Reply #410 on: March 28, 2014, 08:14:46 AM »
Mark Harrison's summary of all searches:

The timeline of these searches was as follows:
 
On 31-07-07 the PJ conducted canine searches with a search warrant at apartments in Praia da Luz that had been previously occupied by the McCanns and their friends.
 
On 01-08-07 the PJ and GNR assisted by a canine, conducted searches on the eastern beach and wasteland in Praia da Luz.
 
On 02-08-07 the PJ conducted a search warrant at a villa in Praia da Luz currently occupied by the McCann family.
 
Later the same day PJ officers conducted a screening procedure involving items removed from the McCann’s villa.
 
On 03-08-07 PJ and GNR officers were given instruction based on translated extracts from NPIA doctrine on search management and procedures. This focused on search procedures relating to buildings and vehicles.
 

On 04-08-07 and 05-08-07 a search warrant was executed at the villa and gardens belonging to the PJ suspect Robert Murat. This search involved both PJ and GNR personnel supported by civil defence, geophysical equipment operators and a canine handler.
 
On 06-08-07 ten vehicles were searched associated to the enquiry.
 
On 07-08-07 the western beach and remaining wasteland areas were searched using canine and GNR personnel.
 
On 08-08-07 the drains around the apartment block where Madeleine McCann disappeared from were subject to a visual inspection by PJ officers.


Why does Harrison acknowledge UK involvement only in those searches he recommended, the places Madeleine, either was known to have been or, conceivably, might have been: the holiday apartments, areas in and around PdL and the Murats' place?

Why did Harrison disown UK involvement in those places Madeleine never went near: the rented villa and the gym.

While Harrison recommended an inspection of vehicles, only 2 (of 3) vehicles he recommended be inspected made the final line-up of 10.  The exception was a vehicle Murat hired, while 8 vehicles Harrison never said anything about (including the Renault Scenic) made the line-up.

Harrison gives no clue who took part in that exercise.

Why did Harrison wait until after both inspections at villa and gym to issue PJ personnel with instructions on how to conduct inspections in buildings and cars?

And why did Harrison wait until after both inspections at the gym and the villa before issuing PJ personnel with instructions on how to conduct searches in buildings and cars?

How did the inspection in the gym, particularly, come about?

From the files, the only explanation we get of the inspection at the gym is this:

Following the search effected at Rua das Flores, 27, during which certain items were seized, this present inspection was performed, in a place appropriated for its purpose, [the gym] attempting to identify particular pieces of clothing possibly indicated by the dogs, namely Eddy [that] indicates cadaver odours and Kila [that] indicates blood Fodours.

Possibly indicated by the dogs

(Or possibly not!)
« Last Edit: March 28, 2014, 08:25:08 AM by ferryman »

Offline jassi

Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
« Reply #411 on: March 28, 2014, 08:26:12 AM »
..

WHAT ! the room where the kids slept you mean  ? 

Why not just say that then  ?

I think its best to be clear. As you know,some people will argue that north is south and black is white when it suits them.
I believe everything. And l believe nothing.
I suspect everyone. And l suspect no one.
I gather the facts, examine the clues... and before   you know it, the case is solved!"

Or maybe not -

OG have been pushed out by the Germans who have reserved all the deck chairs for the foreseeable future

ferryman

  • Guest
Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
« Reply #412 on: March 28, 2014, 11:46:40 AM »
Here is another detail that has always intrigued me, from the inspection in the gym.

My biggest beef about the inspection of vehicles has long been the simple fact of 10 cars inspected simultaneously.

There was an innocent scent in the Renault and there might, easily, have been innocent scents in any of the other 9 cars, which could only have resulted in confusion for the dog.

Now read this:

1. Between 23h20 and 23h30 the two dogs were allowed to reconoitre the entire area [of the gym] to guarantee that there were no existing odours - and none were detected by them.

2. Between 23h30 and 23h40 items from the box labelled 'common room' were inspected by the blood dog without result.
- At 23h41 the cadaver dog began its inspection and 'marked' some clothing on the edge of the area. The inspection ended at 23h52 with the clothing having been collected for later direct examination and photographic report.


An apparent acknowledgment of the possibility of pre-existing scents that might compromise a search, and a precaution against that.

Except that, there was no gap between completion of the reconnoitre and commencement of the search, suggesting that the clothes were already laid out before the reconnoitre.

So why was not any apparent scent detected during the reconnoitre? 

Or did the PJ read these instructions Mark Harrison gave them on how to conduct a search and take bits from them that looked good for their report?

Offline gilet

Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
« Reply #413 on: March 29, 2014, 03:40:03 AM »
That is an interesting observation Ferryman.

I looked back at the video to see if that helped on the matter but unfortunately it didn't.

However I saw something else which I suspect would make it difficult to use the dog alert in the gym in a court in any meaningful way.

Watch from 58:10 as the PT officers empty one box of clothes with no separation between those clothes at all, meaning that cross-contamination would be almost inevitable. If one item had cadaver scent on it then those rubbing against it in that box would likely as not be contaminated.  That is why in this country no police force would collect evidence in such a slapdash way. They would ensure that each item was separately bagged.


I had long been aware of the potential of cross-contamination in these clothing boxes because of the slapdash handling of the clothes but and this is a big but, I hadn't actually noticed exactly what follows from 1:01:00 to 1:01:25 with that in mind.  The three clothing alerts are almost adjacent to each other. And having seen how the PJ officers took the clothing earlier in the film from another box the fact that these three items are so close suggest very strongly that they could in fact have been pressed against each other in the cardboard box. No lawyer would fail to challenge the notion that these could be recorded as three separate alerts when such a strong possibility of cross contamination exists. It is almost impossible to believe in such a situation that cross-contamination would not occur.




Offline Mr Gray

Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
« Reply #414 on: March 29, 2014, 11:32:52 AM »
there isnt any evidence taht maddie has been harmed

Estuarine

  • Guest
Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
« Reply #415 on: March 29, 2014, 12:29:50 PM »
there isnt any evidence taht maddie has been harmed

This is true but equally there isn't any evidence to suggest that she hasn't been harmed. If, however, one chucks into the mix that a little girl vanished into thin air nearly 7 years ago and in that time there has been no credible sighting and she has made no attempt to contact the authorities the balance of probability starts to shift. Whether one accepts the abduction theory or the MPS postulation that Madeleine McCann may not have have left the apartment alive the lack of evidence that she has been harmed becomes merely an academic point as there are indicators that she may have been harmed.

Offline Mr Gray

Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
« Reply #416 on: March 29, 2014, 01:21:40 PM »
This is true but equally there isn't any evidence to suggest that she hasn't been harmed. If, however, one chucks into the mix that a little girl vanished into thin air nearly 7 years ago and in that time there has been no credible sighting and she has made no attempt to contact the authorities the balance of probability starts to shift. Whether one accepts the abduction theory or the MPS postulation that Madeleine McCann may not have have left the apartment alive the lack of evidence that she has been harmed becomes merely an academic point as there are indicators that she may have been harmed.

I answered a specific question...it is obvious to everyone that Maddie is almost certainly dead...even her parents I am fairly sure would accept this...however..there is no evidence that she is dead...therefore as SY correctly state she may still be alive...your constant attempts to prove me wrong are making you look rather silly

Offline Anna

Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
« Reply #417 on: March 29, 2014, 01:32:20 PM »




http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/mar/19/madeleine-mccann-police-intruder-girls-algarve

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/mar/19/madeleine-mccann-police-intruder-girls-algarve
The Guardian

Corrections and clarifications


Corrections and clarifications column editor
The Guardian, Friday 21 March 2014

• An article about police investigations into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann in Portugal in 2007 (Madeleine police hunt serial sex attacker who prowled Algarve, 20 March, page 3) said Detective Chief Inspector Andy Redwood had said the assumption that Madeleine had been alive when she left the apartment "may not follow with all our thinking" on the case. To clarify: those quoted words actually came after Redwood had referred to the assumption that Madeleine had been abducted. However, Redwood did say during the same press conference that police were considering the possibility that Madeleine was not alive when taken from the apartment as well as the possibility that she was.

http://themaddiecasefiles.com/topic22027.html#p287378
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
“May not follow with all  of our thinking“ and the other statement, “police were considering the possibility that Madeleine was not alive when taken from the apartment as well as the possibility that she was”

 I read this , to be including the Portuguese police investigators as well as NSY…..
Hence a difference of opinion between the police of Portugal, who are the investigators of a crime in their own country and NSY , who are not Portuguese officials.
They did not say, British police or NSY.   He said “police”

Since everybody on here assumes that he was referring to the British police only, I must have been reading it wrong?
“You should not honour men more than truth.”
― Plato

Offline jassi

Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
« Reply #418 on: March 29, 2014, 01:40:03 PM »
I certainly read it as divergence within his team, but you may well be right. I'm sure we'll find out sooner or later.

Not something I'm going to get worked up over.
I believe everything. And l believe nothing.
I suspect everyone. And l suspect no one.
I gather the facts, examine the clues... and before   you know it, the case is solved!"

Or maybe not -

OG have been pushed out by the Germans who have reserved all the deck chairs for the foreseeable future

Offline Mr Gray

Re: DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
« Reply #419 on: March 29, 2014, 01:41:24 PM »



http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/mar/19/madeleine-mccann-police-intruder-girls-algarve

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/mar/19/madeleine-mccann-police-intruder-girls-algarve
The Guardian

Corrections and clarifications


Corrections and clarifications column editor
The Guardian, Friday 21 March 2014

• An article about police investigations into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann in Portugal in 2007 (Madeleine police hunt serial sex attacker who prowled Algarve, 20 March, page 3) said Detective Chief Inspector Andy Redwood had said the assumption that Madeleine had been alive when she left the apartment "may not follow with all our thinking" on the case. To clarify: those quoted words actually came after Redwood had referred to the assumption that Madeleine had been abducted. However, Redwood did say during the same press conference that police were considering the possibility that Madeleine was not alive when taken from the apartment as well as the possibility that she was.

http://themaddiecasefiles.com/topic22027.html#p287378
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
“May not follow with all  of our thinking“ and the other statement, “police were considering the possibility that Madeleine was not alive when taken from the apartment as well as the possibility that she was”

 I read this , to be including the Portuguese police investigators as well as NSY…..
Hence a difference of opinion between the police of Portugal, who are the investigators of a crime in their own country and NSY , who are not Portuguese officials.
They did not say, British police or NSY.   He said “police”

Since everybody on here assumes that he was referring to the British police only, I must have been reading it wrong?

As far as I am concerned...now that there is basically nothing to link the mccans with maddie's disappearance.....posters are having to take the slightest comment and try to make something of it....absolute desperation