Where was Gerry immediately after Kate found Madeleine gone at 10pm?

[sadie]

The main proof is the recollection by SC's wife, that during the the walk home she heard a searcher shouting the childs name.

Pegasus, I wanted you to be here when I posted this, but maybe you are not coming in tonight?
 

I would like to tackle the Maria problem mentioned earlier. 
 
NB.  Please remember this was before the statements were translated and available in the UK. and Maria was a PT woman who spoke perfect English.  Maria was translating PT to English
 
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/STEPHEN-CARPENTER.htm
 
31 to 56 Transcription of witness statement of Stephen Carpenter (holidaymaker at the same resort as the Tapas group) 2008.04.21
3-Cartas Rogatorias File 3 Pages 31 - 56
 
 
 
 
When I crossed the road outside the MW reception I remember there were cars parked, I remember taking some time to see if I could cross the road because there were cars parked to my left and I was carrying I****. They were about six metres away from me and i calculate that some (inaudible) metres from the back of Gerry's apartment, I do not remember anything about these cars, it was normal for cars to be parked there and in the morning they were no longer there. My wife mentioned on the following day that she vaguely remembered someone calling "Madeleine, Madeleine", this was after we had crossed the road from the MW reception and before entering our apartment. She does not remember where the sound came from or whether it was in an urgent tone, not paying any more attention to it and only remembered the following day when we heard about Madeleine's disappearance".
OK, before going on the next part, do you remember at what time you left'
 
SC: Humm... vaguely, I think it was what was put in the statement, the same, the leaving the restaurant, the way back to the apartment, looking to my left to check that the way was clear and I didn't see anything....My wife vaguely remembers hearing "Madeleine, Madeleine" and that was all until the following morning when I saw the television.   
 
Having reread the above statement, I see that in one place, Stephen C said ".My wife vaguely remembers hearing "Madeleine, Madeleine" and that was all until the following morning". 
 

I have no reason to disbelieve Maria; she seemed entirely honest.   Knowing that in England we have many words where in other Countries they only use one word, which is therefore less precise, I persisted and asked her, was it shouted, spoken or whispered?   
 
Maybe Maria's eyes alighted on the phrase "My wife only vaguely remembers hearing" and on consideration of the "only vaguely" it seemed to her more likely whispered or murmured, rather than shouted.
 
I have repeated Maria's interpretation many times including at least 3 times on this forum before.
 

Because the statement had not been translated into English, and was not available over here at the time, I was not aware of Stephens full statement.  I have skim read Stephens statement more recently, so my eyes must have missed the relevant part
 
I had no idea at that time that in Stephens statement he specified "My wife mentioned on the following day that she vaguely remembered someone calling "Madeleine, Madeleine"
 

In lieu of having read the statement again it seems Maria, bless her, got her translation wrong.  According to Stephen C. it should have been "called"

[sadie]

I thought a great deal about what you said about SC wife "hearing the sound of a searcher calling Madeleines name."
 
I should point out that we dont know exactly who was calling.  Anyway, I strained my eyes and read around a bit
 
 
 
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/STEPHEN-CARPENTER.htm
 
31 to 56 Transcription of witness statement of Stephen Carpenter (holidaymaker at the same resort as the Tapas group) 2008.04.21
3-Cartas Rogatorias File 3 Pages 31 - 56
 
 
 
 
When I crossed the road outside the MW reception I remember there were cars parked, I remember taking some time to see if I could cross the road because there were cars parked to my left and I was carrying I****. They were about six metres away from me and i calculate that some (inaudible) metres from the back of Gerry's apartment, I do not remember anything about these cars, it was normal for cars to be parked there and in the morning they were no longer there. My wife mentioned on the following day that she vaguely remembered someone calling "Madeleine, Madeleine", this was after we had crossed the road from the MW reception and before entering our apartment. She does not remember where the sound came from or whether it was in an urgent tone, not paying any more attention to it and only remembered the following day when we heard about Madeleine's disappearance".
OK, before going on the next part, do you remember at what time you left'
 
SC: Humm... vaguely, I think it was what was put in the statement, the same, the leaving the restaurant, the way back to the apartment, looking to my left to check that the way was clear and I didn't see anything....My wife vaguely remembers hearing "Madeleine, Madeleine" and that was all until the following morning when I saw the television.  
 
1)  I would point out, Pegasus, that this statement is third party.  It is not from the mouth of Carolyn who did the hearing, but from Stephen her hubby.  Facts that are NOT from the actual witness can, through misunderstanding, get altered.
 
I do not find that satisfactory as evidence of any kind.  It would not stand up in Court
 
 
2)  Also Carolyn Carpenters statement is missing.  Why did Amaral, or the PJ, hold that back? 
 
Does it oppose the statement of her husband Stephen in any way?  Is her description of hearing "Madeleine Madeleine" different from Stephens?  Timewise ... or loudness ?

 
I cannot understand Carolyn's statement being missing. Can you?
 
I think that with the third party statement and Carolyn's statement being , for some reason, missing, there is a BIG question mark over this whole scenario

[pegasus]

If witness CC, walking from tapas to her apartment, did hear someone shouting the childs name, I've already suggested that is likely to be the exact same shouting and searcher as witnesses NB and BB heard. This is not a careless guess, it is based on knowing CC route home and working out timings and sound travel. 

Moving on to another witness, there was a woman, on her way to pick up her child from creche, who encountered a man shouting the child's name, is it possible she too may have encountered the same searcher as the witnesses above?

[pathfinder73]

Yes they were out searching before 10pm. Some have been trying to bring the timeline forward to cover for the Smithman sighting - simple but effective if you fall for it. You can get the real and correct timeline from the rog interviews. Some like Dianne didn't know and just guessing the time. And others did know. But Dianne provides great insights by saying Russell only had about two bites of his steak when Kate came running back. This is all very helpful in working out the real timeline.

[sadie]

Please read reply 121 above.  Today at 12:18:30 AM »

Maybe I should have posted tht first cos I think it changes the picture rather

[pegasus]

I take SC statement to be reliable re what his wife CC vaguely recalled hearing.

BTW the C family on way home from tapas walk under the balcony where the other witnesses were sitting.

Seems obvious to me that Mrs C heard exactly the same shouting as the people on the balcony.

IMO she walked under the balcony just a few minutes before GM passed under same balcony shouting the child's name., so she hears the shouting behind her just before arriving back at C family apartment.

[sadie]

I take SC statement to be reliable re what his wife CC vaguely recalled hearing.

BTW it's definite that the C family on way home from tapas walk under the balcony where the other witnesses were sitting.

Seems obvious to me that Mrs C heard exactly the same shouting as the people on the balcony.

IMO she walked under the balcony just a few minutes before GM passed under same balcony shouting the child's name., so she hears the shouting behind her just before arriving back at C family apartment.

I am surprised.  I can say something and my hubby will have it completely changed when he passes it on.  He says the same about me when I pass things on.  I think most couples are like this

Tbh,  I feel a bit disappointed in you; I thought that you were fair minded and would at least have a question mark in your mind... even if it goes against YOUR theory.


I am sure you know that it wouldn't stand up in Court especially with Carolyns statement being missing as well

[pegasus]

.... You might feel perfectly at ease with accepting a non-verifiable claim by an unknown poster on some forum of long ago,  but it is not acceptable to present it here as a  'source'  of valid information

I am not relying on any such translator or poster. Witnesses hearing someone shouting the child's name is exactly what we would expect to begin very soon after the 7 adults arrived at the street gate of 5A, and IMO the first shouting audible on balcony of NB's apartment would be also the first shouting audible a little further east towards the C family apartment.

[sadie]

I am not relying on any such translator or poster. Witnesses hearing someone shouting the child's name is exactly what we would expect to begin very soon after the 7 adults arrived at the street gate of 5A, and IMO the first shouting audible on balcony of NB's apartment would be also the first shouting audible a little further east towards the C family apartment.

And that was at what time?  Can you remember?

[pegasus]

And that was at what time?  Can you remember?

IMO the C family left tapas later than the recalled 9.15/9.30pm.
IMO shouting audible to CC on way home would also be audible to the balcony witnesses.

[sadie]

And that was at what time?  Can you remember?

Pegasus, I have found the time for you that Neil Berrry and Raj Balu heard the commotion. 

It was after 10pm. ... soon after by the sound of things.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RAJ_BALU.htm

After 22:00 we were still sitting on the veranda in the Berry apartment. We heard noises downstairs and afterwards found out that a child had disappeared. My testimony dated 6th of May 2007 related the details of the conversation we overheard and the information regarding the paper that Neil and I used in the searches.

[ferryman]

Erm, Pathfinder, I think you will find that one of the tapas waiters saw Gerry searching the Tapas garden area at about that time.

I am sorry but I cant read the statements to give you a cite.   But I feel sure that someone else will find it

Jeronimo Salcedas, Sadie:

I offered to alert the workers at the Milenium Restaurant and the man agreed. He then left again running to continue searching. I believe that this was between 21H30 and 22H00 but do not remember with certainty.

The time stated in that same witness's statement to the PJ is different from the above.

But when he gave his rogatory interview (from which the extract above is taken) the Leicestershire Police officer who took the rogatory statement will certainly have had Mr Salcedas' statement to the Portuguese police.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JERONIMO-SALCEDAS.htm

[sadie]

Jeronimo Salcedas, Sadie:

I offered to alert the workers at the Milenium Restaurant and the man agreed. He then left again running to continue searching. I believe that this was between 21H30 and 22H00 but do not remember with certainty.

The time stated in that same witness's statement to the PJ is different from the above.

But when he gave his rogatory interview (from which the extract above is taken) the Leicestershire Police officer who took the rogatory statement will certainly have had Mr Salcedas' statement to the Portuguese police.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JERONIMO-SALCEDAS.htm

Jeronimo was very good on observation but poor on times.

He gave two lots of times, IIRC
1)  21H30 and 22H00
2)  22.20  - ?  ( I forget the later time.

THere was a big space in the middle, but he says he saw Gerry searching whilst Diane was still there on her own.  She left at 10.05 or soon after (lets guess at 10.07)

As said before Jeronimo was not so good on times but he was good on observation of what went on.

[stephen25000]

+

100% Agreed...someone speaks some sense at last

To be more precise, there was a lack of 'sufficient' evidence to charge anyone in the disappearance of Madeleine.

That hasn't changed to date.

[Mr Gray]

To be more precise, there was a lack of 'sufficient' evidence to charge anyone in the disappearance of Madeleine.

That hasn't changed to date.

Both statements are true and support thr McCanns innicence