Where was Gerry immediately after Kate found Madeleine gone at 10pm?

[Wonderfulspam]

I make it about 63m walk, you make it about 90m walk, what does that make birch/spivey?
"under 20 metres my -----" as my friend Mr Royal might say.
I happen to object strongly to that obsessive and deluded self-important rubbish theory against RM.

How do you feel about the 3 members of the tapas group who lied about seeing Robert Murat?

Or Lori Campbell poking her nose in & smearing him because of her gut intstinct.

Or the British nanny who said she saw a man 'identical' to suspect Robert Murat trying to lift the shutters on the ground floor window of the apartment in December, while she was looking after a six-year-old boy inside.

Or Mrs Jensen, Mrs Wiltshire & Raj Balu all claiming to have seen Murat & all participating in the witchhunt.

Or Kate in her book even "Two officers talked openly about Robert Murat, who remained an arguido [suspect] and drip-fed us snippets of 'evidence' linking him to Madeleine."

& not forgetting Charlotte Pennington 'I saw Murat at Maddie flat'

Shameful shower.

[stephen25000]

How do you feel about the 3 members of the tapas group who lied about seeing Robert Murat?

Or Lori Campbell poking her nose in & smearing him because of her gut intstinct.

Or the British nanny who said she saw a man 'identical' to suspect Robert Murat trying to lift the shutters on the ground floor window of the apartment in December, while she was looking after a six-year-old boy inside.

Or Mrs Jensen, Mrs Wiltshire & Raj Balu all claiming to have seen Murat & all participating in the witchhunt.

Or Kate in her book even "Two officers talked openly about Robert Murat, who remained an arguido [suspect] and drip-fed us snippets of 'evidence' linking him to Madeleine."


Shameful shower.

That's putting it mildly Wonderfulspam.

[pathfinder73]

@pathfinder these  3 shots are likely to be from 606 balcony IMO.
www.sleuthingforjustice.com/phpBB3/download/file.php?id=5518&sid=623b39ebcabd3021e94bd511abf22a53
www.sleuthingforjustice.com/phpBB3/download/file.php?id=5508&sid=623b39ebcabd3021e94bd511abf22a53
www.sleuthingforjustice.com/phpBB3/download/file.php?id=5511&sid=623b39ebcabd3021e94bd511abf22a53
The view from which you claim was totally unpolluted by searchers for the first c 20 minutes after the alarm?
BTW I am surprised by your support for the driveway theory on other sites, which I consider to be obsessive and deluded.
And do you still support the xray vision through a huge building rubbish about "less than 20 metres"?
It is simply not true (and that is being polite)

That is the site where I got those images - great ones aswell - many pics are posted and I picked these ones out to show my theory. I hope you're not claiming I post or have posted on that site? Or that I'm Mike whatshisface who the pics are by? You are completely wrong in your assumptions! I don't support Birch's driveway theory. Where have you got that nonsense from and supporting it on other sites?  That is laughable and an outright lie so stop spreading crap Pegasus! FYI - I only started looking at this case by reading the McCann's statements around OCT 2013 - look when I joined this site that's the first few weeks after looking at the statements. From reading those first statements and the impossible moving door, nobody going through the window, no glove marks etc. my first thought was staging and Smithman being the one who was seen carrying Madeleine away. My view has not changed!

But I definitely don't support the driveway theory at all - I was only interested in the source of Birch's 10.15 time in regards to my own theory when Berry/Balu spotted Gerry coming from the crèche direction and back to 5A (IMO this would be 10.10 at the earliest but my question is where was Gerry from 10 to 10.10? That should be in the title of this thread). I was curious to see if Birch had splashed the cash on getting the missing statements but probably not after thinking it over.

Until we read the missing first statements what anybody says is speculation in regards to a time. But we do know the balcony sighting happened after 10pm and not before re Raj Balu. I'm presenting my theory from the other statements e.g. Gerry said "Let's all split up and find her" - that's very telling! Him being the one to split everyone up! And when they reconvene i.e. FP, DP, MO & ROB. Gerry is the only one missing!

[sadie]

I was only interested in the source of Birch's 10.15 time in regards to my own theory when Berry/Balu spotted Gerry coming from the crèche direction and back to 5A (IMO this could be 10.10 at the earliest but my question is where was Gerry from 10 to 10.10?

1)  Where did you get that Gerry was coming from the creche direction from pathfinder?  I cant recall ever having seen that.  Have you real evidence, or have you made that time up to suit your argument?

2)  How did you come to the conclusion that Gerry was talking to them at about 10.15, or at the very earliest at 10.10 ?  Have you real evidence, or have you made that time up to suit your argument?

3)  I thought that Neil Berry and Raj Balus statements given in the 6th and 7th of May, were VERY SUSPICIOUSLY missing, along with Carolyn Carpenters



All I can find is from later statements was,

4 to 5 Witness statement of Rajinder Singh Balu 2008.05.28

After 22:00 we were still sitting on the veranda in the Berry apartment. We heard noises downstairs and afterwards found out that a child had disappeared. My testimony dated 6th of May 2007 related the details of the conversation we overheard  and the information regarding the paper that Neil and I used in the searches. I cannot add any more details save those which have already been given in this testimony.

and

30 to 32 Witness statement of Neil Berry (Holidayed at Ocean Club) 2008.04.23

Once back at the apartment we had dinner and remained there.

iFrom 22.00 onwards all the events that took place were already described in my previous statement of 7th May 2007 and i cannot add any further information, other than that which was already added.

So how do you get the time of 10.15 pathfinder?

[pathfinder73]

This all speculation from other statements and possible evidence from other sightings 

10.15 came from Stephen Birch (Digging for Madeleine blog). So I'm trying to find out his source but he probably guessed it. For doing so I'm wrongly being accused of being a Birch buried under driveway supporter 

AFTER 10pm is from Raj Balu.

10.10 is my guess at the earliest time if coming from the crèche. Gerry said he went there but nobody saw him there. I think he passed by there coming back from where he went missing from 10 to 10.10 IMO. He used that path shortcut as I've posted in the series of photos. Madeleine used that shortcut every day so Gerry was familiar with it. Coming back he was spotted by Berry/Balu on the balcony re photos posted.

My speculation isn't made up - it connects with other known or good possible new evidence.

[Wonderfulspam]

1)  Where did you get that Gerry was coming from the creche direction from pathfinder?  I cant recall ever having seen that.  Have you real evidence, or have you made that time up to suit your argument?

2)  How did you come to the conclusion that Gerry was talking to them at about 10.15, or at the very earliest at 10.10 ?  Have you real evidence, or have you made that time up to suit your argument?

3)  I thought that Neil Berry and Raj Balus statements given in the 6th and 7th of May, were VERY SUSPICIOUSLY missing, along with Carolyn Carpenters



All I can find is from later statements was,

4 to 5 Witness statement of Rajinder Singh Balu 2008.05.28
and

30 to 32 Witness statement of Neil Berry (Holidayed at Ocean Club) 2008.04.23

So how do you get the time of 10.15 pathfinder?

The PJ at the request of SY is my guess, weren't some pages withheld at the request of the British authorities, the paedo files for example. I'm sure I've seen that reported before. I will have a dig around in a mo.


Heres one I do remember, possibly not related.

CRUCIAL files relating to Madeleine McCann’s disappearance are being kept secret by the Government to avoid a diplomatic war with Portugal.

They contain discussions between Home Office ­officials and the Met over ­vital information on the case.
 
But Home Secretary Theresa May and her staff have spent the past nine months preventing the Daily Star Sunday from obtaining the papers.

They said there would be “specific detriment to the UK’s relationship with Portugal” if the four files were released.
 
Ms May also claimed disclosure of three of the documents would “stifle discussion” ­between ­officials.

But we understand the papers may show a difference of opinion between the Home Office and Met officers, who are reviewing the files on Madeleine’s 2007 disappearance in Praia da Luz.

http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/259644/Madeleine-McCann-Key-files-into-probe-kept-top-secret-to-avoid-Portugal-row



http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MISSING_PAGES.htm

[Cariad]

1)  Where did you get that Gerry was coming from the creche direction from pathfinder?  I cant recall ever having seen that.  Have you real evidence, or have you made that time up to suit your argument?

2)  How did you come to the conclusion that Gerry was talking to them at about 10.15, or at the very earliest at 10.10 ?  Have you real evidence, or have you made that time up to suit your argument?

3)  I thought that Neil Berry and Raj Balus statements given in the 6th and 7th of May, were VERY SUSPICIOUSLY missing, along with Carolyn Carpenters



All I can find is from later statements was,

4 to 5 Witness statement of Rajinder Singh Balu 2008.05.28
and

30 to 32 Witness statement of Neil Berry (Holidayed at Ocean Club) 2008.04.23

So how do you get the time of 10.15 pathfinder?

Ah! You want to do this again?


Fine. Raj and Neil returned to Britain on the 5th of May.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P2/02_VOLUME_IIa_Page_334.jpg

so their original statements were taken by LC. LC hold roughly eleven thousand documents pertaining to the Mccann case which have never been seen by the public.

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id130.html

There is nothing suspicious about it at all. Nothing.

[sadie]

This all speculation from other statements and possible evidence from other sightings 

10.15 came from Stephen Birch (Digging for Madeleine blog). So I'm trying to find out his source but he probably guessed it. For doing so I'm wrongly being accused of being a Birch buried under driveway supporter 

Well Stephen Birch.  What can I say?  TBH, I have limited faith in his ideas but I just wish someone would dig that damned drive up and end the speculation one way or another.  Bet the Murats would like a new drive free gratis.
Personally I have little faith in the 10.15 time.  FGS, how did Stephen Birch find that time out anyhow?  It's not in any recorrds that I can find and he came late onto the scene, I believe

Because of the above reasons, I am ignoring that one atm

AFTER 10pm is from Raj Balu.

I am happy about after 10pm.  but no indication if it was 10.01 or 10.10.  It could have just been a generalisation of the time like in "This is what happened after 10pm".  Could mean anything from 10pm onwards.

So nothing exact from there except it was 10pm or after.  However it does give an indicator of what time Kate raised the alarm and the search began.  It was not before 10pm. it seems

10.10 is my guess at the earliest time if coming from the crèche. Gerry said he went there but nobody saw him there. I think he passed by there coming back from where he went missing from 10 to 10.10 IMO. He used that path shortcut as I've posted in the series of photos. Madeleine used that shortcut every day so Gerry was familiar with it. Coming back he was spotted by Berry/Balu on the balcony re photos posted.

But is this speculation? 
How do we know that Gerry was coming from the chreche at all?  Especially at this time?  If he went and it seems plausible that he might have, how do we know when?  I have seen nothing about this, have you?

My speculation isn't made up - it connects with other known or good possible new evidence.

Are you sure, cos it doesn't seem to to me.   Where does it connect ? 

It is good to see you working things out, Pathfinder, but I wonder if you are allowing your preconceptions to influence your thinking?

[Cariad]

When I said there is nothing suspicious about Raj and Neil's statements not being available, what I actually meant was that there is nothing suspicious about.

For all the reasons I supplied in that and previous posts. i.e that they were in Britain at the time, had their first statements taking by the LC and that none of the documentation held by the LC is publicly available.


There is nothing suspicious about. There is no conspiracy. It is not a case of anyone trying to stitch up Gerry. It is normal practice for the British police not to release witness   statements.

It is not fishy nor does it stink. They have not vanished. They have not been disappeared.


There is nothing suspicious. And please understand that that isn't code for "I think there is something suspicious about this".

I don't.

[Wonderfulspam]

No. When I said there is nothing suspicious about Raj and Neil's statements not being available, what I actually meant was that there is nothing suspicious about.

For all the reasons I supplied in that and previous posts. i.e that they were in Britain at the time, had their first statements taking by the LC and that none of the documentation held by the LC is publicly available.


There is nothing suspicious about. There is no conspiracy. It is not a case of anyone trying to stitch up Gerry. It is normal practice for the British police not to release witness   statements.

It is not fishy nor does it stink. They have not vanished. They have not been disappeared.


There is nothing suspicious. And please understand that that isn't code for "I think there is something suspicious about this".

I don't.

 >@@(*&)

[pegasus]

This is from FP rogatory (at about 48 minutes)
"..... Gerry must have rushed in with Kate and pretty much immediately Dave, erm, Matt, Russell and myself split up in four different directions just to do a search, you know, again assuming that she must have just wandered off.  Erm, tut, so, you know, I don’t know which way they went, but I, I went round the back of, erm, tut, well this way around the back of the apartments and round the back of the tennis courts on the main road and then cut down in front of the Baptista Supermarket and back up, that was the route I did. And by the time I got back everyone else had done their loop and at that point then no-one had seen Madeleine.  Erm, I remember saying to Matt at that point ‘You go down to main reception and phone the Police’.  Erm, and I, I don’t know what Matt, erm, I don’t know what Dave and Russell did at that point.  I said ‘I’m going to go up to the’, erm, ‘Kate and Gerry’s apartment’.  Gerry had come down at that point. They hadn’t found Madeleine ....."

[pathfinder73]

Fiona told Matt to go and phone the police at 10.10 according to them both. Where was Gerry 10 to 10.10?

Matt Oldfield

"I think it's Stuart (John - PF) HILL or, well the Manager, the sort of Manager got involved, that might have been when it occurred. Erm, so there was plenty of running around through the back streets and back to the apartment and then, you know, where's the, where are the Police, where are the Police, erm, and so went back down to the reception, this would have been about thirty minutes or so later, erm, back to reception, erm, and at that point, Gerry had come down as well."

First sighting of Gerry since 10pm from Matt. 30 minutes later at 10.40pm

[pegasus]

In that excerpt of FP rogatory I posted above
(A) FP says GM went into 5A immediately after the alarm rush.
(B) FP says GM came down from 5A when she returned from her short search, and before she entered 5A.

So the time elapsed from event (A) until event (B) is easy to calculate because it is equal to the duration of FP's short search.
She estimates how long her search took in the rogatory (at interview time 55 minutes): 

FP: "..... to walk round, erm you know to the left of the apartments, round the back of the tennis court and the, so you know, five minutes”.
1485: "Five minutes”.
FP: “It wasn’t long (inaudible)”.
1485: “So from the time that you’d gone racing off after Kate and Gerry”.
FP: “Yeah”.
1485: “You ended up in the apartment, five minutes later you think?”
FP: “Yeah, five, ten minutes it was certainly within ten minutes it wouldn’t have taken me long to ...."

[pathfinder73]

In that excerpt of FP rogatory I posted above
(A) FP says GM went into 5A immediately after the alarm rush.
(B) FP says GM came down from 5A when she returned from her short search, and before she entered 5A.

So the time elapsed from event (A) until event (B) is easy to calculate because it is equal to the duration of FP's short search.
She estimates how long her search took in the rogatory (at interview time 55 minutes): 

FP: "..... to walk round, erm you know to the left of the apartments, round the back of the tennis court and the, so you know, five minutes”.
1485: "Five minutes”.
FP: “It wasn’t long (inaudible)”.
1485: “So from the time that you’d gone racing off after Kate and Gerry”.
FP: “Yeah”.
1485: “You ended up in the apartment, five minutes later you think?”
FP: “Yeah, five, ten minutes it was certainly within ten minutes it wouldn’t have taken me long to ...."

Dianne went to the apartment 5 minutes after the alarm so how on earth could Fiona be there aswell? Dianne was there for atleast 5 minutes looking at shutters etc. so that's a minimum of 10 minutes after the alarm for starters. Fiona arrived after Dianne had left so you'd better re-work your incorrect timeline? When Fiona arrived only Kate was in 5A.

"And I recall, certainly me, erm, erm, Dave, Matt and I think initially at least Gerry, just said ‘Look, let’s just’, erm, ‘let’s just split up and find’, erm, you know, ‘see if we can find her, see if she’s just wandered out’." (Russell O'Brien)

No mention of Gerry again being seen in the outdoor searches by Russell. He only met up with Dave and Matt.

[pegasus]

...When Fiona arrived only Kate was in 5A....

When FP entered 5A, GM was not in 5A for the obvious reason that, as FP states in an adjoining sentence, he had just come down from 5A and therefore was no longer in 5A.
The meaning of FP's words "Gerry had come down at that point"  is clear JIMO.
Source: FP rogatory (at interview time 48 minutes)