Where was Gerry immediately after Kate found Madeleine gone at 10pm?

[pegasus]

So Admin is "completely wrong" and I am "muddled" and "very confused"?
Hmmm.

ETA Good to see at least "completely wrong" has been removed

[John]

Read this statement:

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DIANNE_WEBSTER_11-MAY07.htm

(although on the first occasion she had no recollection of having seen GERRY)

At the time described above she remained about 10 minutes in the apartment.


Time Estimate 10.10 pm

1485
  'What did you see when you walked in, describe it''
 
FP  Reply
  'At that point, Gerry, I don't think was in the apartment, it was mainly Kate.

Kate was already saying that she'd found the window open and the shutter open and she was convinced at that point that somebody had taken, taken Madeleine and that's what she was telling me and I was like 'They can't have done. They can't have done this', you know. And I looked, I looked throughout the whole apartment and I looked in all the cupboards, under the drawers, under the beds, behind the curtains, everywhere, erm, just, you know, trying to, knowing it had already been done, but you just do.

Gerry would have been outside the window foutering with the shutter at that point surely?  Just to clarify, didn't he himself claim that this was the first thing he did after checking inside the apartment?

[pathfinder73]

This is the full picture with estimate times :

Dianne leaves table 5 minutes after the alarm is raised and goes to 5A.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DIANNE_WEBSTER_11-MAY07.htm

(although on the first occasion she had no recollection of having seen GERRY)

At the time described above she remained about 10 minutes in the apartment. After this time she returned to the restaurant to get her handbag as well as the camera of the couple McCANN and "baby monitor" of her daughter, and was soon back again in the apartment.


Time Estimate 10.10 pm (Fiona went to 5A after sending Matt to go and call the police)

1485
  'What did you see when you walked in, describe it''
 
FP  Reply
  'At that point, Gerry, I don't think was in the apartment, it was mainly Kate.

Kate was already saying that she'd found the window open and the shutter open and she was convinced at that point that somebody had taken, taken Madeleine and that's what she was telling me and I was like 'They can't have done. They can't have done this', you know. And I looked, I looked throughout the whole apartment and I looked in all the cupboards, under the drawers, under the beds, behind the curtains, everywhere, erm, just, you know, trying to, knowing it had already been done, but you just do. Erm, tut, I looked, when I went into the room that Madeleine was sleeping in, the room was dark, Madeleine, erm, Madeleine's bed was sort of folded back, the sheets, quite kind of neatly really, erm, Sean and Amelie were fast asleep in their cots, they didn't stir, you know, I was opening the cupboards in the room and moving around the room, they didn't stir at all, which that was, that was odd. Erm, we were trying to ascertain whether Madeleine could have got out, and I've already said earlier the shutters were very heavy, and I was almost trying to convince Kate that she could have opened the shutter and climbed out, although knowing that wasn't a likely thing, but at that point we were just trying to pacify Kate in that Madeleine was going to be alright. Erm, and I, I think I touched the webbing in that room, but because Sean and Amelie were asleep, I didn't actually open the shutter in that room, we went, I went to the front of the house and I was trying to lift the shutter at the, at the back, just to prove whether, you know, whether it could have been opened and whether Madeleine could have opened it from the inside'. (Fiona Payne)

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EMMA-LOUISE.htm

At about 22.17 I received a call from Lyndsey Johnson, the creche Manager, informing me that the girl had gone missing.

I was told who the missing girl was and at the beginning of the procedure went to the McCann's apartment to obtain the girl's description and of the clothes she was wearing when she disappeared.

Time Estimate 10.20 pm

When I arrived at the apartment, there was a lady on the terrace, whom I now know to be Kate McCann, accompanied by the wife of one of her friends, David Payne. Kate could not say a word, looked very upset and about to cry. It was Mrs Payne who provided me with the details that I needed. I returned to the location where the leaflets were being distributed and passed on the information that I had gathered about the missing girl. (Emma Knight)

[pathfinder73]

Gerry would have been outside the window foutering with the shutter at that point surely?  Just to clarify, didn't he himself claim that this was the first thing he did after checking inside the apartment?

Gerry wasn't there when Dianne arrived 5 minutes after the alarm so if he did look at the shutters it was before Dianne arrived. I doubt that he did as Kate got Dianne to check/lift them first and then 10 minutes later Fiona is checking/lifting the heavy shutters. Neither say Gerry was there helping them and why would Kate ask them if she knew Gerry had done it. It doesn't add up. 5 were involved in the initial outdoor searches - Fiona and the 4 men. Russell recalled that Gerry said "Let's all split up and find her!" The next 10 minutes from that point is what is important which I estimate as being from 10 to 10.10!

My Timeline

9.55 Alarm raised

9.57 Tapas area search.

9.59 David Payne tells Dianne she can leave the table.

10pm - Dianne arrives at 5A. Gerry says Let's all split up and find Madeleine.

10.03 - Smithman sighting.

10.10 - Matt goes to reception to call the police. Fiona goes to 5A.

[a.baker]

No Dianne Webster did that when she came round after Kate told her.

According to GM's 10th May statement he also went outside to see if he could lift the blinds,after his initial search of the apartment.

[sadie]

Gerry wasn't there when Dianne arrived 5 minutes after the alarm so if he did look at the shutters it was before Dianne arrived. I doubt that he did as Kate got Dianne to check/lift them first and then 10 minutes later Fiona is checking/lifting the heavy shutters. Neither say Gerry was there helping them and why would Kate ask them if she knew Gerry had done it. It doesn't add up. 5 were involved in the initial outdoor searches - Fiona and the 4 men. Russell recalled that Gerry said "Let's all split up and find her!" The next 10 minutes from that point is what is important which I estimate as being from 10 to 10.10!

My Timeline

9.55 Alarm raised

9.57 Tapas area search.

9.59 David Payne tells Dianne she can leave the table.

10pm - Dianne arrives at 5A. Gerry says Let's all split up and find Madeleine.

10.03 - Smithman sighting.

10.10 - Matt goes to reception to call the police. Fiona goes to 5A.

So you have made up a ficticious timeline to fit your theory, have you?

The only thing that corresponds with the actual statements, that I can see, is that Matt goes to reception at 10.10


Everything else appears to be made up ..... Why?   >@@(*&)

[pathfinder73]

According to GM's 10th May statement he also went outside to see if he could lift the blinds,after his initial search of the apartment.

Yes that doesn't make any sense does it? Seems everyone was checking those god damn shutters. He also said this in his 2nd statement a week after the facts! Get Columbo on the case "And one more thing Mr McCann"

"it being 22h03, he again alerted KATE that it was time to check the children"  8-)(--)

[pathfinder73]

So you have made up a ficticious timeline to fit your theory, have you?

The only thing that corresponds with the actual statements, that I can see, is that Matt goes to reception at 10.10


Everything else appears to be made up ..... Why?   >@@(*&)

10.03 is the important time. Watch this space to see how important that time actually is 

It is part of PF's theory and no getaway cars are involved. Fiona sometime 9.45-10 Kate left. Matt said Kate left table 9.50. Russ got steak Kate goes to check. Russ back at table 9.45.

"Dinner would end at about 21.45, a few minutes later the witness looked at the table and saw that there was nobody there and one of his colleagues told them that all the guests had left the table in a hurry. In any case, he remembers having heard shouts from the direction of Madeleine's parents' apartment." (Ricardo Alexandre da Luz Oliveira)

[sadie]

10.03 is the important time. Watch this space to see how important that time actually is 

It is part of PF's theory and no getaway cars are involved. Fiona sometime 9.45-10 Kate left. Matt said Kate left table 9.50. Russ got steak Kate goes to check. Russ back at table 9.45.

"Dinner would end at about 21.45, a few minutes later the witness looked at the table and saw that there was nobody there and one of his colleagues told them that all the guests had left the table in a hurry. In any case, he remembers having heard shouts from the direction of Madeleine's parents' apartment." (Ricardo Alexandre da Luz Oliveira)

Oh, I see Pathfinder has evolved a theory using times s/he has made up.

Make up the times to fit the theory , eh ?



Bwhahahaha.....sorry, but ......  !!

[pathfinder73]

Oh, I see Pathfinder has evolved a theory using times s/he has made up.

Make up the times to fit the theory , eh ?



Bwhahahaha.....sorry, but ......  !!

These times are in the files. Fiona sometime 9.45-10 Kate left. Matt said Kate left table 9.50. Russ back at table 9.45 - " my food had arrived, well my food had arrived I think by this point.  And, and then Kate, erm, erm, returned." Kate wasn't gone long according to them.

So a conservative estimate is the alarm was raised before 10pm.

[pathfinder73]

Half and hour later, without anything to signal [with no way to tell the time], it being 22h03, he turned to alert KATE that it was time for her to go to see the children. She immediately made her way to the apartment by the usual path, she having entered by the rear door. About 10 minutes later, he started to worry about her lateness and, at the moment he prepared to stand and to go to see the reason for her lateness, KATE appeared running, completely distraught and crying, saying that MADELEINE had disappeared and that she was sure because she had looked throughout the house.

So Kate was gone for 10 minutes now and came running back at around 10.15pm  8-)(--) Can any detective read this without scratching one's head in amazement  and go something isn't quite right here

[Benice]

Half and hour later, without anything to signal [with no way to tell the time], it being 22h03, he turned to alert KATE that it was time for her to go to see the children. She immediately made her way to the apartment by the usual path, she having entered by the rear door. About 10 minutes later, he started to worry about her lateness and, at the moment he prepared to stand and to go to see the reason for her lateness, KATE appeared running, completely distraught and crying, saying that MADELEINE had disappeared and that she was sure because she had looked throughout the house.

So Kate was gone for 10 minutes now and came running back at around 10.15pm  8-)(--) Can any detective read this without scratching one's head in amazement  and go something isn't quite right here

Unlike 'armchair'detectives - professional Detectives do not expect witnesses to have perfect recall.  What you find to be  'amazing' - they would find to be 'perfectly normal' as illustrated below.

Quote

In a crime situation memory is influenced by many factors such as stress, the presence of a weapon and even just the desire to help police solve the crime.

"Police know how fallible the memory can be," says Steve Retford, a former head of the investigative skills unit at GMP and now specialist interviewing adviser with the force.

"They also know this is usually not through mischievousness on the part of the witnesses, but through stress and shock."

Take the case of Jean Charles de Menezes, shot at Stockwell Tube station in 2005 by police who mistook him for a suicide bomber.

Eyewitnesses said he had vaulted a ticket barrier when running away from the police. In fact it was later shown by CCTV that Mr Menezes had walked through the barriers, having picked up a free newspaper, and only ran when he saw his train arriving.
End quote

It would seem that more than one person's memory of the event was completely wrong - but there is no suggestion by the police that anyone was lying - and that is because they acknowledge and understand how fallible the memory is.

[pathfinder73]

Unlike 'armchair'detectives - professional Detectives do not expect witnesses to have perfect recall.  What you find to be  'amazing' - they would find to be 'perfectly normal' as illustrated below.

Quote

In a crime situation memory is influenced by many factors such as stress, the presence of a weapon and even just the desire to help police solve the crime.

"Police know how fallible the memory can be," says Steve Retford, a former head of the investigative skills unit at GMP and now specialist interviewing adviser with the force.

"They also know this is usually not through mischievousness on the part of the witnesses, but through stress and shock."

Take the case of Jean Charles de Menezes, shot at Stockwell Tube station in 2005 by police who mistook him for a suicide bomber.

Eyewitnesses said he had vaulted a ticket barrier when running away from the police. In fact it was later shown by CCTV that Mr Menezes had walked through the barriers, having picked up a free newspaper, and only ran when he saw his train arriving.
End quote

It would seem that more than one person's memory of the event was completely wrong - but there is no suggestion by the police that anyone was lying - and that is because they acknowledge and understand how fallible the memory is.

Are you kidding me? Gerry said an exact time of 10.03  8-)(--) did he guess that exact time  Shush Smithman sighting? 

[Benice]

Are you kidding me? Gerry said an exact time of 10.03  8-)(--) did he guess that exact time  Shush Smithman sighting? 

Did you actually read the article as you seem to have missed the whole point.   Gerry's recall of that time could be completely wrong.    Just as those witnesses who were so sure Menezes vaulted a barrier were completely wrong.   And in the same way as one or more of the witnesses who recalled where Jez and Gerry stood in the road, are wrong.

IMO its a wasted exercise to try to accurately pin events down to the last minute by using the times quoted by witnesses - as they are all from memory - and are also memories of a stressful situation -  which makes them even more likely to be flawed. 

IMO you are using what is very likely to be  inaccurate 'evidence' to suggest something 'sinister'.... or as you say...  ''one of life's greatest mysteries'' - but which professional policemen would not find 'mysterious' at all because they fully understand the fallibility of memory.

   

[pathfinder73]

Did you actually read the article as you seem to have missed the whole point.   Gerry's recall of that time could be completely wrong.    Just as those witnesses who were so sure Menezes vaulted a barrier were completely wrong.   And in the same way as one or more of the witnesses who recalled where Jez and Gerry stood in the road, are wrong.

IMO its a wasted exercise to try to accurately pin events down to the last minute by using the times quoted by witnesses - as they are all from memory - and are also memories of a stressful situation -  which makes them even more likely to be flawed. 

IMO you are using what is very likely to be  inaccurate 'evidence' to suggest something 'sinister'.... or as you say...  ''one of life's greatest mysteries'' - but which professional policemen would not find 'mysterious' at all because they fully understand the fallibility of memory.

   

What planet are you living on? You would only give an exact time if you knew what time it was. If you are not sure of the time you would say I don't know for certain but maybe around 10 or 9.55 not give an exact time down to the exact minute unless you have checked your watch. My theory connects with all the evidence and facts. We will see how wrong I am.