The dogs.....

[faithlilly]

Brietta posted 'It will also react to every substance expelled from a living human body such as spit, fingernails, blood, excrement … as these all begin to decay immediately on separation. '

Blood perhaps but do you have a  cite for your claim that  the dogs alert to spit, fingernails and excrement ?

[ferryman]

Brietta posted 'It will also react to every substance expelled from a living human body such as spit, fingernails, blood, excrement … as these all begin to decay immediately on separation. '

Blood perhaps but do you have a  cite for your claim that  the dogs alert to spit, fingernails and excrement ?

Cadaverine is contained in certainly urine and sperm, possibly faeces.

Grime says Eddie (RIP) didn't react to cadaverine.

[pegasus]

However, in spite of not being a normal situation for tracking, it could be attempted, whilst the operation should be carried out as quickly as possible and not directed towards one but to all the apartments in the resort, it being appropriate for the handler not to know which apartment was chosen, so as not the be conditioned.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GNR_SNIFFER.htm

If one reads a few lines further one finds that the handler, who conducted the search you refer to, was Pedro Fernandes. Reading his statement, he was already aware from a few days before (4th May) that the apartment the child had apparantly disappeared from was 5A - because it was from outside 5A frontdoor that he had conducted the trailing on that earlier date.
Fernandes did not know the identity of the other apartments of this doctor group (5B 5D 5H 4G 4I) but he did already know the identity of apartment 5A.

[ferryman]

If one reads a few lines further one finds that the handler, who conducted the search you refer to, was Pedro Fernandes. Reading his statement, he was already aware from a few days before (4th May) that the apartment the child had apparantly disappeared from was 5A - because it was from outside 5A frontdoor that he had conducted the trailing on that earlier date.
Fernandes did not know the identity of the other apartments of this doctor group (5B 5D 5H 4G 4I) but he did already know the identity of apartment 5A.

At about 23.00 accompanied by a PJ inspector, the searches were begun. After Rex was given the girl's clothing to sniff, he began to search on the ground floor of block 5 and when he passed the door of apartment 5 A (the place the girl had disappeared from) according to his handler, officer Fernandes, the dog altered its behaviour, sniffing with greater intensity than he had done before. Apartment 5J of the same block was also checked as the dog had been more agitated than before as if there were a very strong strange odour there. It was stated that this apartment had been unoccupied for some time. Afterwards, the same kind of search was carried out using the dog Zarus which in general terms showed the same behaviour in the same places as Rex had done.

No indication that the handler had prior knowledge.

But, yes, changes in behaviour from the dog at apartments 5a and 5j (the second unoccupied for some time).

[Brietta]

Brietta posted 'It will also react to every substance expelled from a living human body such as spit, fingernails, blood, excrement … as these all begin to decay immediately on separation. '

Blood perhaps but do you have a  cite for your claim that  the dogs alert to spit, fingernails and excrement ?

There are many sources for what I have said and logic should dictate that any part excreted from a human body will be subject to decay and therefore picked up by a dog trained to pick up decay.
For example, as Martin Grime emphasises the CSI will react only to blood and nothing else.
The EVRD will react to everything.

I'm sure you do not really require a cite ... I think you are just being a bore ... because it has all been said oh so many times before ... but, just for you :-

Martin Grime
CARTAS ROGATORIAS 3 Pages 21 to 25

Q; The EVRD dog also alerts to blood from a live human being or only from a cadaver?

A: The EVRD dog is trained using whole and disintegrated material, blood, bone tissue, teeth, etc. and decomposed cross-contaminants. The dog will recognize all or parts of a human cadaver. He is not trained for 'live' human odours; no trained dog will recognize the smell of 'fresh blood'. They find, however, and give the alert for dried blood from a live human being.

Q:Taking into account the signals of CSI, could the dog alert to other biological fluids?

A: The dog that alerts to human blood is trained exclusively for this purpose, and includes its components, plasma, red cells, white cells and platelets. Given the nature of the training, the dog will not alert to urine, saliva, semen sweat, nasal secretion, vaginal secretion or human skin unless these are mixed with blood. The components of blood are approximately:
http://mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_RIGATORY.htm

the dog will not alert to urine, saliva, semen sweat, nasal secretion, vaginal secretion or human skin but the EVRD will.
 

[pegasus]

At about 23.00 accompanied by a PJ inspector, the searches were begun. After Rex was given the girl's clothing to sniff, he began to search on the ground floor of block 5 and when he passed the door of apartment 5 A (the place the girl had disappeared from) according to his handler, officer Fernandes, the dog altered its behaviour, sniffing with greater intensity than he had done before. Apartment 5J of the same block was also checked as the dog had been more agitated than before as if there were a very strong strange odour there. It was stated that this apartment had been unoccupied for some time. Afterwards, the same kind of search was carried out using the dog Zarus which in general terms showed the same behaviour in the same places as Rex had done.

No indication that the handler had prior knowledge.

But, yes, changes in behaviour from the dog at apartments 5a and 5j (the second unoccupied for some time).

Fernandes learned the identity of 5A at 11pm 4th May. Therefore during the later search you were referring to (7th or 8th May) he already knew the identity of 5A.

[pathfinder73]

There are many sources for what I have said and logic should dictate that any part excreted from a human body will be subject to decay and therefore picked up by a dog trained to pick up decay.
For example, as Martin Grime emphasises the CSI will react only to blood and nothing else.
The EVRD will react to everything.

I'm sure you do not really require a cite ... I think you are just being a bore ... because it has all been said oh so many times before ... but, just for you :-

Martin Grime
CARTAS ROGATORIAS 3 Pages 21 to 25

Q; The EVRD dog also alerts to blood from a live human being or only from a cadaver?

A: The EVRD dog is trained using whole and disintegrated material, blood, bone tissue, teeth, etc. and decomposed cross-contaminants. The dog will recognize all or parts of a human cadaver. He is not trained for 'live' human odours; no trained dog will recognize the smell of 'fresh blood'. They find, however, and give the alert for dried blood from a live human being.

Q:Taking into account the signals of CSI, could the dog alert to other biological fluids?

A: The dog that alerts to human blood is trained exclusively for this purpose, and includes its components, plasma, red cells, white cells and platelets. Given the nature of the training, the dog will not alert to urine, saliva, semen sweat, nasal secretion, vaginal secretion or human skin unless these are mixed with blood. The components of blood are approximately:
http://mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_RIGATORY.htm

the dog will not alert to urine, saliva, semen sweat, nasal secretion, vaginal secretion or human skin but the EVRD will.

unless these are mixed with blood

[pegasus]

Have you watched the full extended vehicle video?
He calls the dog back to various vehicles, not just the Scenic.
Have you watched the video of Eddie being called back repeatedly to the Corsa?
Sniffing under the boot and at the door seals of the Corsa.
He does. It's in the video.
Do you find it strange that Eddie did not alert to the Corsa, despite close sniffing of it, and despite being called back to it?

[ferryman]

Fernandes learned the identity of 5A at 11pm 4th May. Therefore during the later search you were referring to (7th or 8th May) he already knew the identity of 5A.

Do you want to provide a verbatim quote?

[Brietta]

unless these are mixed with blood

Yes we know ... absolutely no need to shout.  The CSI dog only alerts to blood; the point was that the EVRD alerts to all sorts of human tissue and not necessarily from a dead person as in the instance of dried blood from a shaving cut.

[pathfinder73]

Eddie is an enhanced victim recovery dog and is specially trained to detect the scent of human remains. He is able to smell through solid materials, like concrete, because of scientific training techniques.

It's this training that sets him apart from standard police sniffer dogs, which are able to detect human remains in shallow graves. The springer's nose is more sensitive and he is called in on more complicated cases.

Super sensitive

The specialist training techniques - which are highly confidential - were developed by Eddie's handler Martin Grime, along with the UK's National Policing Improvement Agency (NPIA) and America's Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI).

They are scientifically based and rely on how dogs smell and the chemicals involved.

"A standard sniffer dog is like a basic tool. An enhanced dog goes through much more training and is a lot more discriminating about smells, basically its nose is super sensitive. It's also about getting the dog to really focus on a task."

"Other dogs have to do other police duties but mine work full-time in this area, making them very sharp and highly skilled."

Eddie was bred by a specialist search-dog breeder and Keela came from the West Midlands Police breeding programme.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/7263355.stm

[ferryman]

Eddie is an enhanced victim recovery dog and is specially trained to detect the scent of human remains. He is able to smell through solid materials, like concrete, because of scientific training techniques.

Bloody hell

If Eddie (or any dog) could smell through concrete, that would be because of something like vent holes or some kind of break that allows circulation or escape of air.

[pathfinder73]

The specialist training techniques - which are highly confidential - were developed by Eddie's handler Martin Grime, along with the UK's National Policing Improvement Agency (NPIA) and America's Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI).

I think a court may listen to Martin Grime and his professional opinion about the dog alerts in this case.

[ferryman]

The specialist training techniques - which are highly confidential - were developed by Eddie's handler Martin Grime, along with the UK's National Policing Improvement Agency (NPIA) and America's Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI).

I think a court may listen to Martin Grime and his professional opinion about the dog alerts in this case.

He said that no incriminating inference could be made from the alerts without forensic corroboration.

No particular argument with that ...

[pegasus]

Do you want to provide a verbatim quote?

1. "the dogs were given this scent from the towel and near apartment 5A"
That was about 10.30pm 4th May.
Source: Fernandes' statement pages 785-788

2. During Fernandes tracking about 10.30pm 4th, it was obvious to Fernandes and anyone's auntie that 5A was where the child had apparantly disappered from, no-one could have failed to notice the GNR guard, the ribboning off with crime scene tape, it was impossible to not know that 5A was the place.

3. During the search you originally referred to, which was on 7th or 8th May, Fernandes already had all that previous knowledge, plus 5A was still ribboned off and guarded, so it was impossible for Fernandes to be unaware that 5A was the presumed crime scene.

In this context, the passage you quoted about the handler (on 7th or 8th) not knowing which apartments were relevant, IMO clearly refers to not knowing the other T9 apartments (which were 4B 5D 5H 4G and 4I) but cannot possibly refer to not knowing 5A, because it was so obvious that was the presumed crime scene.