Author Topic: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?  (Read 355001 times)

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Offline Mr Moderator

Far be it for me to start another canine thread but there are some issues which must be clarified.  In doing so I hope to have the question answered, are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?

The 'dogs' received some almighty bad Press back in 2007 as a consequence of two extremely high profile cases, namely, the disappearance of Madeleine McCann followed soon after by the Jersey Child Abuse Probe. The dogs also attracted further criticism in 2008 following the kidnapping of Shannon Matthews.



Police handler Martin Grime with Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog Eddie.

I don't intend to delve into these cases in my introduction except to explain to anyone who doesn't  already know that in the McCann case no evidence of remains were ever found despite several alerts and in the Jersey probe all that was found were milk teeth and a piece of coconut shell together with some ancient bones.  In the Matthews case, the child was later found safe and well despite alerts by several dogs.  The reason for this being given that second-hand furniture brought into the family home had previously been contaminated by death scent from an unconnected source.



A piece of cocunut shell wrongly identified as a fragment of child's skull during the Jersey probe.


Further information on the cases referred to above can be found within the forum, alternatively refer to the following links...

> Jersey child abuse probe.

> Disappearance of Madeleine McCann.

> More than half UK's sniffer dogs involved in search for Shannon Matthews.


1311
« Last Edit: September 24, 2015, 12:53:19 AM by Admin »

Offline Mr Moderator

Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #1 on: March 25, 2014, 06:24:38 PM »
The Government’s National Policing Improvement Agency (NPIA) conducted a review of the use of specialist sniffer dogs in 2009 and later produced a report.  Their conclusion was that specialist victim recovery dogs were not trained to approved standards, with no way of gauging their competence.

"There is no consistency in what the dogs can do and how it is done," the report stated.

"Furthermore, there is no national standard for accrediting dogs and handlers or record keeping of the success rate they achieve."

The report added the dogs, which are trained to detect the smell of dead bodies, have "the potential to cause complications in an inquiry".

"There is an urgent need to have national policy on their training, accreditation and deployment," it concluded.

In March 2011 the Association of Chief Police Officers working group produced a Manual of Guidance. It provided up to date guidance on the selection of handlers, the training, kennelling and welfare of police dogs, as well as the equipment that was approved for use in both the training and operational environment. It was based on guidance then available from professionals within the Police Service, as well as support and advice from partner agencies where appropriate.

In December 2011 it was announced that the NPIA would be wound down and its functions transferred to the Home Office and other police organisations.



Attached below > A pdf copy of the ACPO dog manual can be downloaded.



[attachment deleted by admin]
« Last Edit: March 25, 2014, 10:09:29 PM by Mr Moderator »

Offline Mr Moderator

Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #2 on: March 25, 2014, 10:06:22 PM »
This thread is now open.

Posters are reminded that this topic relates to the reliability of the dogs.

Offline Wonderfulspam

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Offline Mr Gray

Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #4 on: March 25, 2014, 10:13:31 PM »
grime says no....

in his statement he says...in his opinion...it is suggestive...which to me is far from certain

so a very useful tool...but not 100% reliable

Offline Wonderfulspam

Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #5 on: March 25, 2014, 10:30:59 PM »

Missing Zahra Clare Baker

10th October 2010

The girl's parents told police she was last seen sleeping in her bed around 2:30 a.m. They reported her missing around 2 p.m., said police.

11th October 2010

A search warrant for two vehicles registered to Adam and Elisa Baker reveal that a search and rescue dog "gave a positive alert for the presence of human remains."

16th November 2010

Elisa told police where to find child's scattered remains, but doesn't tell how she died.

Zahra Baker's body was dismembered and the remains hidden across several rural locations.

http://www.mccannfiles.com/zahrabaker.html

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Offline Air Con

Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #6 on: March 25, 2014, 10:47:19 PM »
grime says no....

in his statement he says...in his opinion...it is suggestive...which to me is far from certain

so a very useful tool...but not 100% reliable

Which is exactly what they're trained to do.

It's then down to the officers to corroborate the evidence/alerts given by the dogs.

Another thread on the dogs? Really?

Cariad

  • Guest
Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #7 on: March 25, 2014, 10:54:08 PM »
grime says no....

in his statement he says...in his opinion...it is suggestive...which to me is far from certain

so a very useful tool...but not 100% reliable

Was it last year or 2012 that the Higgs boson was proven to exist? Evidence of inflation theory was this month.

You're beginning to sound like a creationist with your "which to me is far from certain"....

I would put money on that the science will back up the theory one day. We just don't have tools sensitive enough to do it yet.

Silkywhiskers

  • Guest
Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #8 on: March 25, 2014, 11:26:25 PM »
An off duty EVRD dog and his handler found the Long Island dumping grounds.

The dog was being walked along the road and went NUTS.

But of course, a fluke....?

Offline pathfinder73

Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #9 on: March 25, 2014, 11:56:31 PM »
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline Brietta

Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #10 on: March 26, 2014, 12:55:33 AM »
An off duty EVRD dog and his handler found the Long Island dumping grounds.

The dog was being walked along the road and went NUTS.

But of course, a fluke....?

Not at all surprising.
 
A quick google search enumerates many examples like the following of dog walkers being alerted to human remains by their animal?

Investigation launched after dog walker finds body in woods     
http://www.getsurrey.co.uk/news/local-news/investigation-launched-after-dog-walker-6115578

But locating bodies and interpreting dog alerts isn't an exact science, as the search for Jimmy Hoffa’s remains illustrate.  The EVRD alerted in the area intelligence had indicated the body was buried, but only animal bones were found.
 
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2013-06-18/news/chi-jimmy-hoffa-20130618_1_machus-red-fox-jimmy-hoffa-mob-boss
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

icabodcrane

  • Guest
Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #11 on: March 26, 2014, 01:09:48 AM »
grime says no....

in his statement he says...in his opinion...it is suggestive...which to me is far from certain

so a very useful tool...but not 100% reliable

Well Scotland Yard seem to think it is reliable enough for them to announce that they think Madeleine may have died in the apartment

There is nothing else  that specifcally suggests  that possibilitly  afterall  ...  just the dog alerts 

Offline Brietta

Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #12 on: March 26, 2014, 01:22:34 AM »
Well Scotland Yard seem to think it is reliable enough for them to announce that they think Madeleine may have died in the apartment

There is nothing else  that specifcally suggests  that possibilitly  afterall  ...  just the dog alerts

At the start of the investigation NSY were not going on that premise and it has only been mentioned as the investigation has progressed and more information has been given to them.

Therefore IMO it is new evidence and not old [dog alerts] which is at the root of the statement made, but without the theory that she had been abducted being discarded.
They are keeping all options open.
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline John

Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #13 on: March 26, 2014, 08:18:54 AM »
Someone pointed out the other day that DCI Redwood has made a point of never mentioning the EVRD or the CSI dog alerts.  Assuming this is true for a moment, does his silence on the issue say rather more than any words could?

To answer the opening question I feel there is an important place for these dogs but do ghosts leave scent?
« Last Edit: March 26, 2014, 09:10:29 AM by John »
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline Wonderfulspam

Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #14 on: March 26, 2014, 08:23:48 AM »
Someone pointed out the other day that DCI Redwood has made a point of never mentioning the EVRD or the CSI dog alerts.  Assuming this is true for a moment, does his silence on the issue say rather more than any words could?

To answer the opening question I feel there is an important place for these dogs but do ghosts leave scent?

The way I look at it is this,

Are CSI and EVRD dogs still used by the Police? Yes indeed they are.

Has Maddie been found alive?  No, she most certainly hasn't.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2014, 09:10:53 AM by John »
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