Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?

[stephen25000]

no I think its stupid...as I said I am not interested in what grime didn't say...just what he did say

So where does Grime say the dog's reaction could not have indicated  Madeleine's remains ?

[Alfred R Jones]

So where does Grime say the dog's reaction could not have indicated  Madeleine's remains ?

Has anyone here claimed that Grime stated this?  I think not.

[stephen25000]

Has anyone here claimed that Grime stated this?  I think not.

Where has Grime stated the dogs alerts couldn't be indicative of Madeleine's remains ?

[Alfred R Jones]

Where has Grime stated the dogs alerts couldn't be indicative of Madeleine's remains ?

I repeat, when has anyone ever made this assertion? 

[ferryman]

Bumped for Ferryman - It's possible that you missed it, now being a number of pages back.

Given that you are such a self appointed expert on cadaver dog handling, how EXACTLY did Grime prompt and cue Eddie? Given your claim this one should be very easy for you to answer.

I am happy (almost!) to let PJ Inspector Dias do my talking:

From the screening of the videos, referred previously, done when the dogs were working, some doubts arise. We don't want and we can't take the place of the trainer, we only wish to alert, with this paragraph, to some facts, that according to us, need further clarification.

If the dog is trained to react when he detects what he is looking for, why, in most of the cases, we see the dog passing more than once by that place in an uninterested way, until he finally signals the place where he had already passed several times'

On one of the films, it's possible to see that 'Eddie' sniffs Madeleine's cuddle cat, more than once, bites it, throws it into the air and only after the toy is hidden does he 'mark' it (page 2099). Whys didn't he signal it when he sniffs it on the first time'


PJ Inspector Dias alludes unmistakably to the constant directing and re-directing of the dog.

If you read the report of the deployment of the Portuguese dogs, you will find that their handlers were not told which holiday apartment was the McCanns so as to avoid them being conditioned, an unmistakable reference to the possibility of bias influencing a handler's relation with his dog, and a precaution against that.

I think the Portuguese handlers knocked the spots off Grime for professionalism ...

[ferryman]

Have yourself and inspector Dias been trained in cadaver dog handling? Are you able to spot the subtle changes in behavior and direct the dog accordingly? If so, are you stating that it is not Grime's job to direct the dog and read the dog's behavior?

In relation to the car search which you claimed was prompting. How do you explain the fact that the dog alerted and after a subsequent search the reason for the alert was discovered?

Using the word in its proper sense, Grime anticipated a very different discipline in his dog-handling in PdL.

[Brietta]

Have yourself and inspector Dias been trained in cadaver dog handling? Are you able to spot the subtle changes in behavior and direct the dog accordingly? If so, are you stating that it is not Grime's job to direct the dog and read the dog's behavior?

In relation to the car search which you claimed was prompting. How do you explain the fact that the dog alerted and after a subsequent search the reason for the alert was discovered?

But it wasn't 'cadaver'.

[ferryman]

But it wasn't 'cadaver'.

Indeed it wasn't.  It was Gerry's blood.

The key is in Harrison's summary of all searches.

He recommended that the holiday apartments be inspected and, in his summary, acknowledges the input of Grime and his dogs.

Harrison recommended that sections of surrounding countryside be inspected and, again, acknowledges the input of Grime and his dogs.

Harrison said nothing about the places Madeleine never lived or never went near (the villa and the gym) and in his summary, describes those inspections as PJ exercises!

In respect of vehicles, Harrison only recommended that all vehicles owned or driven by Murat should be inspected.  One of those never made it, while 8 Harrison said nothing about made it.

In his summary, Harrison gives no clue who took part in that exercise.

More than that, Harrison waited until after both inspections at villa and gym before giving PJ personnel instructions on how to conduct inspections in buildings and vehicles.

I will provide the link in an edit.

The timeline of these searches was as follows:

 

On 31-07-07 the PJ conducted canine searches with a search warrant at apartments in Praia da Luz that had been previously occupied by the McCanns and their friends.

 

On 01-08-07 the PJ and GNR assisted by a canine, conducted searches on the eastern beach and wasteland in Praia da Luz.

 

On 02-08-07 the PJ conducted a search warrant at a villa in Praia da Luz currently occupied by the McCann family.

 

Later the same day PJ officers conducted a screening procedure involving items removed from the McCann’s villa.

 

On 03-08-07 PJ and GNR officers were given instruction based on translated extracts from NPIA doctrine on search management and procedures. This focused on search procedures relating to buildings and vehicles.

 

On 04-08-07 and 05-08-07 a search warrant was executed at the villa and gardens belonging to the PJ suspect Robert Murat. This search involved both PJ and GNR personnel supported by civil defence, geophysical equipment operators and a canine handler.

 

On 06-08-07 ten vehicles were searched associated to the enquiry.

 

On 07-08-07 the western beach and remaining wasteland areas were searched using canine and GNR personnel.

 

On 08-08-07 the drains around the apartment block where Madeleine McCann disappeared from were subject to a visual inspection by PJ officers.

Mark Harrison

[ferryman]

Yes, I've read all that.

In fact, I myself, posted it on this board.

Mark Harrison doffed his cap and took orders from (who is not clear) who did not know better than him as to where, aside from the places he recommended, inspections should be undertaken.

In particular, how did the inspection in the gym come about?

On 25-07-07 the PJ Director decided his officers would re-search some of the areas suggested within the report. He also decided the order of their priority. These were the accommodation the McCann’s and their friends have occupied in Praia da Luz, the villa and the grounds occupied by Robert Murat, wasteland that surrounds these locations and any known vehicles the suspect, the McCanns and their friends had access to when Madeleine disappeared.

Did the PJ director know more about these things than Harrison?

 

[Brietta]

But there was a corroboration for the alert wasn't there? All the dog is asked to do is search for a scent that it has been trained to find. The dog found the scent.

The claim from Ferryman was that Grime prompted the dog. The possible reason put forward by yourself Brietta was clever Hans.

With this in mind I'll ask the questions again that neither yourself or Ferryman have yet answered. If you really believe it then it shouldn't be too difficult for either if you to explain your reasoning.

Brietta:- If clever Hans is the reason then how does it apply in this scenario?

Ferryman:- How EXACTLY did Grime prompt his dog?

When did my 'credibility' return, buzz?

Buzz:-) I have given you a link to a site which will explain the concept because it is one you obviously do not understand or choose not to understand.
I recommend you follow it or just use a search engine to locate another site to your liking when all will be revealed to you.

You will see it is applicable not just in this scenario ... but in every scenario involving dogs or other animals.

[ferryman]

From the files, the only explanation I am aware of of how the inspection at the gym came about is this:

Following the search effected at Rua das Flores, 27, during which certain items were seized, this present inspection [at the gym] was performed, in a place appropriated for its purpose, attempting to identify particular pieces of clothing possibly indicated by the dogs, namely Eddy [that] indicates cadaver odours and Kila [that] indicates blood odours.

Possibly indicated by the dogs

(Or possibly not).

The only other explanation is that in Amaral's book, that Harrison conveyed a message to Amaral via Tavares that he needed decontaminated premises to conduct a second search (or some such)

Why then, in his summary, does Harrison describe the inspection at the gym as a PJ exercise?

And given that Madeleine never went near the place, why an inspection there at all?

[Brietta]

So by repeatedly referring me back to links you obviously are unable or unwilling to discuss how it is applied in this particular scenario.......and you've got the brass neck to accuse me of shutting down debate!

Fair enough. You may have wasted a great chance to convince me of your argument though.

Having read your posts ... I doubt that very much.

Good to have a statement though instead of aggressive questions designed to send me down many different tracks.
As you can see, it won't work.

[John]

The photos of Eddie and Keela have arrived thanks to Martin Grime, I will post them on their own thread shortly.

www.miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=4706.msg170010#msg170010

[faithlilly]

It will be interesting to see how the supporters react IF the dogs brought in by SY do react to any of the present arguido's cars.

I predict Martin Grime's professionalism will receive a very hefty metaphorical kicking.

[Brietta]

It will be interesting to see how the supporters react IF the dogs brought in by SY do react to any of the present arguido's cars.

I predict Martin Grime's professionalism will receive a very hefty metaphorical kicking.

If the dogs react as per training and it is a very big if ... imo it will not signify a definite connection to Madeleine. 
It is an indication that closer investigation must take place to identify exactly what it is the dogs have reacted to.

Without evidence to tell us exactly what ... their reaction means nothing.

Martin Grime said exactly that but in more professional language.  Pity so many people chose to ignore him.