Author Topic: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?  (Read 355000 times)

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Offline Carana

Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #15 on: March 26, 2014, 08:58:17 AM »
Someone pointed out the other day that DCI Redwood has made a point of never mentioning the EVRD or the CSI dog alerts.  Assuming this is true for a moment, does his silence on the issue say rather more than any words could?

To answer the opening question I feel there is an important place for these dogs but do ghosts leave scent?


They are an asset to help uncover evidence, but in this case the alerts did not lead to any, so I don't see why he would mention them. If the dogs had been a mechanical or other type of asset deployed without results, there would be no reason to mention those either.

Their review led to the conclusion that there was still a chance that she could be alive. The forensic timeline showed opportunity for her to have been taken alive and there is no proof that she died.

"From that vast quantity of material analysed we have identified 38 persons of interest and 12 who are UK nationals, and it is from that position that we are able to move from review to investigation."

DCI Redwood added: "There is no clear, definitive proof that Madeleine McCann is dead.

"On that basis I genuinely believe there is a possibility she is still alive. And so I would like to ask the public to continue to look for her."

http://news.sky.com/story/1111554/madeleine-mccann-new-uk-police-investigation



« Last Edit: March 26, 2014, 09:38:49 AM by John »

Offline John

Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #16 on: March 26, 2014, 09:41:42 AM »

They are an asset to help uncover evidence, but in this case the alerts did not lead to any, so I don't see why he would mention them. If the dogs had been a mechanical or other type of asset deployed without results, there would be no reason to mention those either.

Their review led to the conclusion that there was still a chance that she could be alive. The forensic timeline showed opportunity for her to have been taken alive and there is no proof that she died.

"From that vast quantity of material analysed we have identified 38 persons of interest and 12 who are UK nationals, and it is from that position that we are able to move from review to investigation."

DCI Redwood added: "There is no clear, definitive proof that Madeleine McCann is dead.

"On that basis I genuinely believe there is a possibility she is still alive. And so I would like to ask the public to continue to look for her."

http://news.sky.com/story/1111554/madeleine-mccann-new-uk-police-investigation

At the end of the day they have to explain the dogs reaction.  As soon as Eddie entered 5a his demeanour changed significantly according to his handler.  Ignoring this evidence will only come back to haunt them when this investigation falters. 
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline Benice

Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #17 on: March 26, 2014, 09:53:00 AM »
At the end of the day they have to explain the dogs reaction.  As soon as Eddie entered 5a his demeanour changed significantly according to his handler.  Ignoring this evidence will only come back to haunt them when this investigation falters.

They have several choices John - as provided by Martin Grime.   Personally, considering the huge amount of 'traffic' which had gone through that apartment in the preceding months -  I would think cross-contamination originating from any number of unknown innocent sources would be high on the list.
The notion that innocence prevails over guilt – when there is no evidence to the contrary – is what separates civilization from barbarism.    Unfortunately, there are remains of barbarism among us.    Until very recently, it headed the PJ in Portimão. I hope he was the last one.
                                               Henrique Monteiro, chief editor, Expresso, Portugal

Offline Eleanor

Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #18 on: March 26, 2014, 10:08:20 AM »
At the end of the day they have to explain the dogs reaction.  As soon as Eddie entered 5a his demeanour changed significantly according to his handler.  Ignoring this evidence will only come back to haunt them when this investigation falters.

The dog was pulling on the leash when walking down the outside passage before he got near the front door.  I doubt he could smell cadaver odour in the bedroom on the other side of the appartment, in a closed building and behind a recessed front door.   
But he had just been let out of his cage, and he was a bit manic anyway.

Offline John

Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #19 on: March 26, 2014, 10:12:18 AM »
The dog was pulling on the leash when walking down the outside passage before he got near the front door.  I doubt he could smell cadaver odour in the bedroom on the other side of the appartment, in a closed building and behind a recessed front door.   
But he had just been let out of his cage, and he was a bit manic anyway.

True but didn't that happen most times?  Mr Grime would know after all?
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline Eleanor

Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #20 on: March 26, 2014, 10:19:12 AM »
True but didn't that happen most times?  Mr Grime would know after all?

So how did the dog's demeanour change?  Eddie was manic outside and inside.

Offline Benice

Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #21 on: March 26, 2014, 10:40:08 AM »
The dog was pulling on the leash when walking down the outside passage before he got near the front door.  I doubt he could smell cadaver odour in the bedroom on the other side of the appartment, in a closed building and behind a recessed front door.   
But he had just been let out of his cage, and he was a bit manic anyway.

I agree Eleanor.   

Eddie didn't know that what he did was 'work' - to him it was something he did which led to lots of praise and a treat from his owner.    IMO he would naturally be excited at that prospect - especially in the first few moments after being released from being confined in his cage for a while.



The notion that innocence prevails over guilt – when there is no evidence to the contrary – is what separates civilization from barbarism.    Unfortunately, there are remains of barbarism among us.    Until very recently, it headed the PJ in Portimão. I hope he was the last one.
                                               Henrique Monteiro, chief editor, Expresso, Portugal

Offline Carana

Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #22 on: March 26, 2014, 10:51:13 AM »
Addressing the OP, I think that the only people who can objectively answer the question are the police forces / S&R services who deploy them.

One or two controlled studies have shown that dogs can continue to detect scents for a while after the secondary source material has been removed. On the other hand, at least one other study has shown the effect of handler bias on dogs' reactions.

If dogs were useless, then they wouldn't be used at all. Best practice analysis, adaptations in training methods, assessing the possibility of irrelevant alerts and the avoidance of potential handler bias are no doubt being improved all the time. Their cost effectiveness depends on it.

If their cost effectiveness (presumably not just financial) outweighs the cost of other means over time, then they will continue to be an asset. Expensive excavations wherever a dog happens to alert, or at least not proceeding to eliminate potential irrelevant / innocent alerts would decrease their ROI.

That's not the dogs' fault.





Offline pathfinder73

Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #23 on: March 26, 2014, 11:02:36 AM »
I agree Eleanor.   

Eddie didn't know that what he did was 'work' - to him it was something he did which led to lots of praise and a treat from his owner.    IMO he would naturally be excited at that prospect - especially in the first few moments after being released from being confined in his cage for a while.


Accusing Eddie at being crap at his job again. The other day it was Eddie taking 20 minutes to alert and now this.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2014, 11:05:05 AM by pathfinder73 »
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline Angelo222

Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #24 on: March 26, 2014, 11:17:28 AM »
The dog was pulling on the leash when walking down the outside passage before he got near the front door.  I doubt he could smell cadaver odour in the bedroom on the other side of the appartment, in a closed building and behind a recessed front door.   
But he had just been let out of his cage, and he was a bit manic anyway.

Are you being purposely obtuse Eleanor?  Eddie only searched when commanded, have you never viewed the videos??  In fact, have you any idea how many hours are spent training these dogs?
« Last Edit: March 26, 2014, 11:19:10 AM by Angelo222 »
De troothe has the annoying habit of coming to the surface just when you least expect it!!

Je ne regrette rien!!

Estuarine

  • Guest
Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #25 on: March 26, 2014, 11:38:31 AM »
The ladies do protest too much methinks

Offline pathfinder73

Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #26 on: March 26, 2014, 11:40:29 AM »
"The Government’s National Policing Improvement Agency  (NPIA) said specialist victim recovery dogs are not trained to approved standards, with no way of gauging their competence."

How about starting with false alerts? How many false alerts had Eddie according to Martin Grimes?

"The dogs' CV is impressive. Besides collaborating in hundreds of investigations, they passed the practical tests brilliantly at the FBI's "Body Farm," the only place in the world where human cadavers are used to simulate homicide scenarios and concealment of bodies.

Amongst the most media-covered cases, which they contributed to resolving, is that of the disappearance in Northern Ireland of Attracta Harron, who was last seen when she was returning home on foot, after having been to church. All searches carried out by the police were unsuccessful. The main suspect's car having been totally burnt out in a mysterious fire, couldn't be examined. They called in Eddie, who examined the charred remains of the vehicle and immediately picked out the characteristic odour. Human tissue was found amongst the debris, the DNA of which corresponded to the missing woman. Later, the dog indicated the place - close to a river - where the victim's body had been abandoned. At the home of the suspect, where the police were searching for incriminating evidence, Eddie identified cadaver odour in one of the bedrooms. The man confessed to having killed the woman then moving her body to the banks of the river.

The case of Amanda Edwards, reported missing, is also very impressive. The police, who conducted a search of her ex-partner's home, found small bloodstains there, but no trace of a body. The dog, who was brought in for the examination of the man''s vehicle, alerted to cadaver odour on the tools stored in the boot (a shovel, a level and a compactor). The police went to the building site where the suspect had worked a few days before and discovered the body, buried in a garage. The murderer had made efficient use of his tools to carry out his task.

It's also thanks to the help of the dogs that the case of Charlotte Pinkley, a missing British woman, who had been imprisoned by her ex-partner, was resolved. The police requested the help of the specialist dog team to try to find the young woman's body. Eddie picked out a place where the abductor had provisionally left his victim. In the surrounding area, the investigators found the button from a dress that had belonged to Charlotte. That clue exposed the murderer, who ended up showing the police the place where he had hidden the body."
« Last Edit: March 26, 2014, 12:19:55 PM by Angelo222 »
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline jassi

Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #27 on: March 26, 2014, 11:40:53 AM »
More "dis Grime" posting based on no experience of EVRD handling whatsoever but hey, let's not let that get in the way of a bit of Grime bashing!



Absolutely - he's public enemy number 2 and must be discredited at all costs by the True Believers, who have no purpose in life, other than to promulgate the "McCanns are innocent, McCanns are blameless" storyline contained in the gospel according to St Kate.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2014, 05:37:13 PM by John »
I believe everything. And l believe nothing.
I suspect everyone. And l suspect no one.
I gather the facts, examine the clues... and before   you know it, the case is solved!"

Or maybe not -

OG have been pushed out by the Germans who have reserved all the deck chairs for the foreseeable future

Offline slartibartfast

Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #28 on: March 26, 2014, 11:47:06 AM »
You obviously need to read that Blog Article posted above at 11.00.56 Today.

Yes, it's about training and accreditation not that the dogs don't alert to cadaver odour. Plus other comments from "rival" dog training bodies.
“Reasoning will never make a Man correct an ill Opinion, which by Reasoning he never acquired”.

Offline Angelo222

Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #29 on: March 26, 2014, 12:26:44 PM »
Posters are reminded of the thread title.   It is also against forum rules to post blog comments and especially ones which amount to opinion and hearsay.

Back to topic.  There can be no doubt that Eddie contributed much to police investigations over the course of his life for which we can all be grateful.  It is unfortunate therefore that his involvement in the Madeleine case has never seen a conclusion or that his finds in Jersey have been dissed as a failure.  There can be no doubt that Eddie alerted in both cases but to what will remain a mystery...at least for now.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2014, 12:33:52 PM by Angelo222 »
De troothe has the annoying habit of coming to the surface just when you least expect it!!

Je ne regrette rien!!