Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?

[Benice]

Benice.............

Your self-assessed superior "common sense" would ensure that you understood quite well that my response was to you, surely?..........It is obvious and the post is quite clear.

There is nothing to add.

You are inclined to put out propaganda by selectively adopting your "common sense " assessment of the deployment of the dogs......(imo. of course.)

If you are claiming I am a member of the 'group' which I can only assume you meant - then you are quite wrong. 

And I have never suggested that anyone will 'see the light'.

I form my opinions on the evidence.     No-one is obligated to agree with me. 

[Cariad]

Only inasmuch as I was married to a farmer's son.  The sheepdog did get very excited when he first set off to work.   It was a different story at the end of the day when he returned  home.

IMO Eddie  knew he was setting off to 'work' once released from the vehicle  - and that is why he got excited - not because he had detected cadaverscent.    And I didn't see any change in that excited behaviour when he got to 5A - which I presume was his first job of the day.     

But Mr Grime did and since it was his dog, don't you think that he'd know best? You're giving an opinion (which you are of course entitled too) that is contrary to that of the dogs owner/handler.

Imo it seems a little.... arrogant to assume that you know someone else's dog better than they do, especially when that owner is a very  highly respected dog trainer.

[John]

I don't know how many years Martin had Eddie but a handler forms a close affinity with their charge, that is why Eddie went with him when he retired from SYP.  A new handler will normally start with their own young dog and train it from scratch.

[Serendipity]

For the record I do not hold with Birch's theory.

However, just theorising for a moment, it is possible for a dog to miss a body if it has been covered in lime before being buried as the lime would mask the scent of death.

http://www.murderpedia.org/male.D/d/dobkin-harry.htm

Lime mummifies the body.  So if chlorinated or quicklime was lime used to cover a body there would be no odour. Lime is plentiful in Portugal as it is used in the wash to cover the outside of houses.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2571109/DNA-profile-created-Jane-Doe-body-Oklahoma-river-1980-killers-unintentionally-covered-chemical-mummified-corpse.html

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=59T08k5buBwC&pg=PA59&lpg=PA59&dq=quicklime+mummification&source=bl&ots=8iglIwyB8R&sig=iCNt_PXuTOPCRd2aziuO-LT69_A&hl=en&sa=X&ei=ASo0U73tN4Sm0AWvhIHoBA&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=quicklime%20mummification&f=false

So, in theory, if a body was on M....... property when Eddie checked, he would not have failed in his remit to detect it's scent as the scent that he is trained to detect would have been masked and undetectable to him.

 

[Wonderfulspam]

For the record I do not hold with Birch's theory.

However, just theorising for a moment, it is possible for a dog to miss a body if it has been covered in lime before being buried as the lime would mask the scent of death.

http://www.murderpedia.org/male.D/d/dobkin-harry.htm

Lime mummifies the body.  So if chlorinated or quicklime was lime used to cover a body there would be no odour. Lime is plentiful in Portugal as it is used in the wash to cover the outside of houses.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2571109/DNA-profile-created-Jane-Doe-body-Oklahoma-river-1980-killers-unintentionally-covered-chemical-mummified-corpse.html

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=59T08k5buBwC&pg=PA59&lpg=PA59&dq=quicklime+mummification&source=bl&ots=8iglIwyB8R&sig=iCNt_PXuTOPCRd2aziuO-LT69_A&hl=en&sa=X&ei=ASo0U73tN4Sm0AWvhIHoBA&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=quicklime%20mummification&f=false

So, in theory, if a body was on Murat's property when Eddie checked, he would not have failed in his remit to detect it's scent as the scent that he is trained to detect would have been masked and undetectable to him.

So, in theory, if a body was on M...... property when Eddie checked, he would not have failed in his remit to detect it's scent as the scent that he is trained to detect would have been masked and undetectable to him.


Is exactly what I had in mind.

[Benice]

But Mr Grime did and since it was his dog, don't you think that he'd know best? You're giving an opinion (which you are of course entitled too) that is contrary to that of the dogs owner/handler.

Imo it seems a little.... arrogant to assume that you know someone else's dog better than they do, especially when that owner is a very  highly respected dog trainer.

IMO - the same can be said about people who assume they know better than SY and yet have no experience of policework themselves.  And yet this forum is full of posts from people questioning their expertise - even their integrity in some instances.

But there you go   - one rule for one and another for Martin Grime apparently -  whose part in this case must not be queried or discussed - because of his expertise as a dog trainer.        BTW - that's dog trainer - not astro-physicist.       Anyone with reasonable intelligence can read and understand enough about Sniffer dogs to have an informed opinion on the subject imo.    It's not rocket science.
 

[Wonderfulspam]

IMO - the same can be said about people who assume they know better than SY and yet have no experience of policework themselves.  And yet this forum is full of posts from people questioning their expertise - even their integrity in some instances.

But there you go   - one rule for one and another for Martin Grime apparently -  whose part in this case must not be queried or discussed - because of his expertise as a dog trainer.        BTW - that's dog trainer - not astro-physicist.       Anyone with reasonable intelligence can read and understand enough about Sniffer dogs to have an informed opinion on the subject imo.    It's not rocket science.
 

Anyone with reasonable intelligence can read and understand enough about Sniffer dogs to have an informed opinion on the subject imo. 

Yep, and you only have to look at the case of Eugene Zapatta ,where his wife turned up alive & well after all them years, to know how incredibly unreliable those cadaver dogs are.

[Cariad]

IMO - the same can be said about people who assume they know better than SY and yet have no experience of policework themselves.  And yet this forum is full of posts from people questioning their expertise - even their integrity in some instances.

But there you go   - one rule for one and another for Martin Grime apparently -  whose part in this case must not be queried or discussed - because of his expertise as a dog trainer.        BTW - that's dog trainer - not astro-physicist.       Anyone with reasonable intelligence can read and understand enough about Sniffer dogs to have an informed opinion on the subject imo.    It's not rocket science.
 

IMO that is not the case. Imo you are claiming to know more about a particular dog then a particular trainer, based on having watched one video.

Should I express the opinion that SY have made mistakes in the past, that's one thing. Should I claim that Andy Redwood doesn't know his arse from his elbow, that an entirely different thing all together.

IMO, you saying that you see no difference in Eddie's reaction between getting out of the car and entering the apartment is akin to the latter.

Also, IMO, the amount of crap thrown at the PJ on these pages, it wouldn't surprise me if SY is criticized in retaliation.

As it goes, I think SY and AR are doing a sterling job and I look forward to their results in the fullness of time.

All imo of course.

[Serendipity]

IMO that is not the case. Imo you are claiming to know more about a particular dog then a particular trainer, based on having watched one video.

Should I express the opinion that SY have made mistakes in the past, that's one thing. Should I claim that Andy Redwood doesn't know his arse from his elbow, that an entirely different thing all together.

IMO, you saying that you see no difference in Eddie's reaction between getting out of the car and entering the apartment is akin to the latter.

Also, IMO, the amount of crap thrown at the PJ on these pages, it wouldn't surprise me if SY is criticized in retaliation.

As it goes, I think SY and AR are doing a sterling job and I look forward to their results in the fullness of time.

All imo of course.

I assume Benice missed this when I posted it yesterday.

'Police dog used in search for Suzanne Pilley found 'positive indications' of human remains'

"she told the trial that repeatedly in the garage and in the corridor leading from it into into the office block buster had shown signs of interest."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XY07z7A9zpw

[pegasus]

Yep, and you only have to look at the case of Eugene Zapatta ,where his wife turned up alive & well after all them years, to know how incredibly unreliable those cadaver dogs are.

>@@(*&) yes and as compensation for those horrible unreliable dog signals wasn't he given vouchers for five years worth of free luxury hotel accomodation?

[icabodcrane]

 

It is a fact that the EVRD dog has not been proven to be right in the McCann case. And no matter how many statistics and comments may be offered or however many times the failure of one dog to alert is made out to "= cadaver scent", the reality is that there is no proof that a dead body was in Apartment 5A   

Again,  why are you insisting that the cadaver dog alert does not  'prove'  there was a dead body in apartment 5A as if the point is being argued  ?     ...  no-one has suggested  that the dog alert provides  'proof'  of a dead being in apartment 5A

It is 'suggestive'  of it though

Suggestive enough for Scotland Yard to think Madeleine may have died there

[jassi]

A great deal when it comes to what one would term ' the repetitive ad nauseam.

Ah, you need to speak to davel - he's good at that

[Cariad]

A great deal when it comes to what one would term ' the repetitive ad nauseam.

If there are sites in which people are claiming that a cadaver dog signal is indicative of Madeleine Mccanns death in 5A, wouldn't you be better off making your points there?

We don't require it here.

 

[jassi]

Would it were only davel.

True, but he's probably the best

[Mr Gray]

Again,  why are you insisting that the cadaver dog alert does not  'prove'  there was a dead body in apartment 5A as if the point is being argued  ?     ...  no-one has suggested  that the dog alert provides  'proof'  of a dead being in apartment 5A

It is 'suggestive'  of it though

Suggestive enough for Scotland Yard to think Madeleine may have died there

you are now making things up which shows the weakness of your argument....you make a connection between the alerts and SYs statement....SY haven't made this connection