Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?

[gilet]

Scotland Yard think Madeleine might have died in apartment 5A

I'll tell you what a  'weak argument'  is  ...  suggesting  that Scotland Yard came to that conclusion without any  consideration at all of the cadaver dog alerts  ...  that the dog alerts have nothing whatsoever to do with Scotland Yard thinking Madeleine died in the apartment  ...  that whilst they have some 'other'  imagined reason for thinking Madeleine died in the apartment,  it was certainly not because  cadaver dog intelligence was suggestive that a dead body had been there  ...  no siree

Now  that's a weak argument

But that is not the argument I have made at all. I have pointed out that there is no direct connection between the dog alerts and the statement. There isn't.

But far more importantly, I have also pointed out that the statement would have been utterly accurate had no dogs ever been near the apartment or car. It is patently obvious that the child could have died either in or out of the apartment or that she may still be alive.

The dog alerts do not seem to be the dominant basis of SY reasoning for another reason too. Had they been so then SY would not have completely ignored them and expressed the opinion that Madeleine could well be alive.

For all we know the alerts could have been entirely dismissed by Scotland Yard. And before you say that I am stating this as a fact, I am not. But there is no evidence known to any of us that indicates it is not a fact is there? So it is possible. Maybe Grime has offered further evidence? We simply do not know.

But to state that it is on the basis of the dog alerts that SY have made that statement because of the dog alerts is simply not correct. It is a possibility but no more than that. It is a total non-sequitur in terms of logic though.

[pegasus]

So is the formula time seen + minimum process time  = earliest possible moved?  >@@(*&)

[Mr Gray]

Death in the apartment was already suspected before the dogs were brought in

[pathfinder73]

No-one has ever said that the dog alerts have been ruled out and only last week Andy Redwood suggested very strongly that they are still very much in play when he said there was a possibility that Madeleine was not alive BEFORE she left the apartment.  He did not say she might not be alive.  He made a point of indicating a timeline for such a possibility.  Not finding a body does not make them wrong and we must not forget that forensics did not rule Madeleine in and nor did they rule her out.  Given the excellent track record of the dogs, it is highly unlikely that Eddie was wrong, he alerted to cadaver scent but he has no way of knowing whose scent that belonged to, it is up to the authorities to determine if he was alerting to Madeleine or to another person.  Therefore it cannot be categorically stated that the dogs were wrong in the McCann case.  Whether they were or not will not be known until the case is resolved.

Despite claiming you have studied cadaver odour for two years, you have a lot to learn in terms of the way that Eddie and Keela worked and the following demonstrates that clearly:

'however many times the failure of one dog to alert is made out to "= cadaver scent"''

Keela was never trained to alert to cadaver scent, so how could she be deemed to have failed to alert to it?  She was trained to alert to blood only.  Eddie on the other hand was trained to alert to both blood and cadaver scent only. Neither dogs were trained to alert to anything else so when they alerted it  will only ever be to what they were trained to alert to and nothing else. Both dogs were deconditioned to alert to any other bodily fluids such as semen, urine etc unless they were mixed with blood. They were used in tandem as a fail safe method of determining what was being alerted to.  Using two dogs, both who were trained to alert to blood and one who was trained to alert to cadaver scent made that possible.  If Eddie was to alert, Martin would know that he had alerted to either blood or cadaver scent or both as they were the only two things he was trained for but would need to deploy Keela to validate Eddies alert.  As Keela only alerted to blood, if she did not also alert then it would mean that as per his training Eddie was only alerting to the other scent he was trained to detect i.e. cadaver scent.  If Keela also alerted to the same item/location as Eddie then the alerts would only be attributed to blood as Keela was not trained to detect cadaver scent.  Legally a blood alert is the only alert that authorities can accept as it can be proven what it is the dogs alerted to.  Where Keela does not alert but Eddie does alert Martin knows that = cadaver scent as that's what the dog was trained to detect but of course he cannot legally state that. It is up to police to identify any corroborative evidence  to prove that Eddie was indeed alerting to where a body or body part had been, which is why Martin can only state that it is 'suggestive' of cadaver scent until either a body or other forensic corroborative evidence explaining the alert is found.

Excellent information. Thanks for sharing 

[jassi]

Death in the apartment was already suspected before the dogs were brought in

Really?

By whom and when was it first mentioned?

[gilet]

No-one has ever said that the dog alerts have been ruled out and only last week Andy Redwood suggested very strongly that they are still very much in play when he said there was a possibility that Madeleine was not alive BEFORE she left the apartment.  He did not say she might not be alive.  He made a point of indicating a timeline for such a possibility.  Not finding a body does not make them wrong and we must not forget that forensics did not rule Madeleine in and nor did they rule her out.  Given the excellent track record of the dogs, it is highly unlikely that Eddie was wrong, he alerted to cadaver scent but he has no way of knowing whose scent that belonged to, it is up to the authorities to determine if he was alerting to Madeleine or to another person.  Therefore it cannot be categorically stated that the dogs were wrong in the McCann case.  Whether they were or not will not be known until the case is resolved.

See further posts about the fact that the linking of the dog alerts and Redwood's statement is a non-sequitur.

I have not claimed categorically anywhere that Eddie was wrong and never would do so though that possibility does, of course, exist.  It is not the only case where Grime's dogs have suggested cadaver scent and no body has been found though.

Despite claiming you have studied cadaver odour for two years, you have a lot to learn in terms of the way that Eddie and Keela worked and the following demonstrates that clearly:

'however many times the failure of one dog to alert is made out to "= cadaver scent"''

What are you talking about. Nowhere have I ever claimed to have studied cadaver odour for any period of time, let alone two years. You really need to stop inventing such nonsense about other posters. I could even take up your rather over-played idea of reporting such lies.

Keela was never trained to alert to cadaver scent, so how could she be deemed to have failed to alert to it?  She was trained to alert to blood only.  Eddie on the other hand was trained to alert to both blood and cadaver scent only. Neither dogs were trained to alert to anything else so when they alerted it  will only ever be to what they were trained to alert to and nothing else. Both dogs were deconditioned to alert to any other bodily fluids such as semen, urine etc unless they were mixed with blood. They were used in tandem as a fail safe method of determining what was being alerted to.  Using two dogs, both who were trained to alert to blood and one who was trained to alert to cadaver scent made that possible.  If Eddie was to alert, Martin would know that he had alerted to either blood or cadaver scent or both as they were the only two things he was trained for but would need to deploy Keela to validate Eddies alert.  As Keela only alerted to blood, if she did not also alert then it would mean that as per his training Eddie was only alerting to the other scent he was trained to detect i.e. cadaver scent.  If Keela also alerted to the same item/location as Eddie then the alerts would only be attributed to blood as Keela was not trained to detect cadaver scent.  Legally a blood alert is the only alert that authorities can accept as it can be proven what it is the dogs alerted to.  Where Keela does not alert but Eddie does alert Martin knows that = cadaver scent as that's what the dog was trained to detect but of course he cannot legally state that. It is up to police to identify any corroborative evidence  to prove that Eddie was indeed alerting to where a body or body part had been, which is why Martin can only state that it is 'suggestive' of cadaver scent until either a body or other forensic corroborative evidence explaining the alert is found.

Please read my posts. I have stated more clearly than most that Grime can only state that it is suggestive of cadaver odour. I have posted full quotes from Grime which show that your "= cadaver scent" claim was totally untrue.

It was you, yesterday, who posted that an absence (better word than failure I will admit) of an alert by Keela means that Eddie's alert "= cadaver scent". You made that categorical claim without any reference to Grime's very clear statement that it was untrue and was only suggestive of such.

[John]

Thanks that's very interesting and connects with my theory that something happened 6.30 to 7pm and moved out around 2 hours later. If they think Madeleine died in the apartment then they won't believe she was fine under or on top of the covers in Gerry's case on his check at just after 9pm. If they think he was not telling the truth then Smithman is a first connecting thought.

Ah but the thing you have to remember is this.  Madeleine could have died following some sort of misadventure at any time of the evening after she was last seen.  She could have been taken out at any time by someone who later had access to her.  Cadaverine contaminated items or clothing could have been brought back to the apartment at any time thereafter and it is that contaminant that Eddie alerted to.  Eddie's detection skills were so sharp that even a very small amount of contaminant would have resulted in an alert.

Scotland Yard have now chosen to reveal that they are of the opinion that Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.  They did not have to reveal this information but did so regardless.  This is not a general observation but has to be based on some knowledge.  As it stands, the only knowledge which we are aware of on which such a scenario could be based is the dog alerts.

Gilet, for the last time, Serendipity has first hand knowledge of what Eddie's and Keela's abilities were. He/she should not be criticised simply because they left out the word 'suggestive' yesterday.  Your obsession with this point is becoming tiresome.

[pathfinder73]

Death in the apartment was already suspected before the dogs were brought in

Of course it was otherwise the dogs wouldn't be there. They weren't paying a lot of money for the dogs for nothing.

[pathfinder73]

Ah but the thing you have to remember is this.  Madeleine could have died following some sort of misadventure at any time of the evening after she was last seen.  She could have been taken out at any time by someone who later had access to her.  Cadaverine contaminated items or clothing could have been brought back to the apartment at any time thereafter and it is that contaminant that Eddie alerted to.  Eddie's detection skills were so sharp that even a very small amount of contaminant would have resulted in an alert.

Scotland Yard have now chosen to reveal that they are of the opinion that Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.  They did not have to reveal this information but did so regardless.  This is not a general observation but has to be based on some knowledge.  As it stands, the only knowledge which we are aware of on which such a scenario could be based is the dog alerts.


Gilet, for the last time, Serendipity has first hand knowledge of what Eddie and Keela's abilities were. He/she should not be criticised simply because they left out the word 'suggestive' yesterday.

First Daily Routine Change of the Week for Madeleine?

[gilet]

Imagine if Eddie's search of 5A had produced no signals, to SY that would be intelligence: left apartment alive.

No. It would simply be inconclusive work by the dogs. The situation would still remain that missing Madeleine McCann could have died in the apartment or outside the apartment or could still be alive. That is the current situation. That is also the very same situation that has existed since the disappearance on May 3rd 2007.

[jassi]

No. It would simply be inconclusive work by the dogs. The situation would still remain that missing Madeleine McCann could have died in the apartment or outside the apartment or could still be alive. That is the current situation. That is also the very same situation that has existed since the disappearance on May 3rd 2007.

Funnily enough, davel is just saying the same sort of thing.

Have we turned to a new page on the hymn sheet ?

[gilet]

Funnily enough, davel is just saying the same sort of thing.

Have we turned to a new page on the hymn sheet ?

As it is the plain and simple truth of the matter, no.

It is a simple statement of the facts.

[gilet]

If you are going to respond to points within a post, it is better to quote the individual points and respond accordingly.

My apologies, I got you mixed up with PV, it was he/she who claimed to have studied cadaver odour.

Don't point me to posts without a referencing link please. Even more preferable would be for you to address the point I make within this thread and not point me to another thread.

If you would like to list the cases where Eddie has alerted and the cases have not been resolved to date, I will take a look and respond.

Thanks :)

Not being an expert I cannot provide a list off the top of my head.

The Bianca Jones case where Grime conducted a very similar search to that in PDL comes to mind immediately. Another thing about that case which impinges on the reliability of the searches was the fact that Grime (as in PDL where the McCann car was covered in posters of Madeleine which were part way through the search removed so that Keela could be observed inside the car) claimed that he was not aware which car belonged to the father. I find that really hard to understand as that car had been featured prominently on the news broadcasts in the couple of days between the disappearance and the arrival of Grime on scene. Are we to take it that he didn't do any research about the case in advance as he travelled to the USA or why would he not have been aware of the car?

ps Your apology regarding your being mistaken over the claim about me having stated that I had researched this topic for two years is accepted. I have never researched the topic. I have read the files and various reports extremely carefully but other than that I am not an expert though probably somewhat more expert than the average member of the public.

[Mr Gray]

Really?

By whom and when was it first mentioned?

the fact that the cadaver dogs were brought in shows death in the apt was suspected

[gilet]

the fact that the cadaver dogs were brought in shows death in the apt was suspected

It was specifically stated as a possibility that Madeleine had died in the apartment and been removed in the preliminary report done by Mark Harrison. the same report where he recommended the EVRD and CSI dogs.

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id293.html