Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?

[Carew]

But... but... I don't understand? Isn't davel now saying that there was always a chance of Maddie (sic) Dying in the apartment and that sy saying that means nothing?


Mind.Blown.

Looks like goalposts are being shifted all over the place.

[gilet]

Looks like goalposts are being shifted all over the place.

I don't know about davel but anyone reading my posts will understand that I have always claimed that Madeleine may be alive or may be dead. I hope for the former but recognise that the latter is a strong possibility. If the latter is true there has never been any denial on my part that she may indeed have died in Apartment 5A or outside the apartment.

What I am very keen to make clear though and always have done so is that I am 100% in agreement with Martin Grime who, in his report, who said that without further corroboration the dog alerts cannot be taken as evidence of a death in Apartment 5A.

It is a possibility but there is no evidence available to us that shows it happened. There are dog alerts which suggest it might have happened but they are not evidence never mind proof of such an occurence.

[gilet]

You still don't get it Dave.  As a professional expert dog handler Martin Grime has to be very careful how he words his reports for obvious reasons. He and Eddie had a long history of success together well before the McCann case, some of these cases Serendipity has already referred to. He knows very well what Eddie alerted to in apartment 5a but as he stated in his report, this cannot be confirmed or corroborated without scientific forensic evidence to back it up.  He didn't come out and declare that Madeleine died in apartment 5a but that doesn't mean it isn't true.

No but as Martin Grime very clearly says, it means there is no evidence at all that it did happen, merely the possibility of it having happened.

That means that the dogs have not taken the case forward very much at all as that possibility existed prior to the searches by the dogs.

[gilet]

.........and you stop being so rude!......

(or are you another one on a mission to abuse and educate an imagined lynch mob for a high-five with Davel and a row of flag- waving smilies from your other cronies?)

You bypassed my earlier reply to your own post, which explained perfectly well what I meant............ preferring to pounce onto a mistake in a later one to Carana.........not to you at all!

It is also obvious that SY in their review have not, until recently, mentioned the possibility of a death in the apartment...........

Stop muddying it with mentioning the PJ in 2007.

There was absolutely nothing rude in my post to you.

I simply said that your comment that posters such as myself should be able to guess that you had missed out words was ridiculous. It was and it remains so.

As for me muddying the waters. I disagree. The fact remains that the PJ clearly thought that there was a possibility of a death within the apartment back in 2007 as did anyone with an ounce of sense who was reading the reports of the case at the time.

There is absolutely nothing to demonstrate that the fact that SY have now mentioned that possibility has anything whatsoever to do with the dogs. Why it is constantly being introduced in this thread I have no idea. It could be to do with any part of their investigation or review. It may relate to a pattern of activity which they know one of their suspects has been involved in previously. It may come from some other forensic work which we have no knowledge of. This attempt to connect the dogs and that brief comment as if they were directly connected appears quite desperate to me.

[icabodcrane]

No but as Martin Grime very clearly says, it means there is no evidence at all that it did happen, merely the possibility of it having happened.

That means that the dogs have not taken the case forward very much at all as that possibility existed prior to the searches by the dogs.

Well it was a possibility the McCanns never acknowledged 

They have always insisted that there is no evidence that  'suggests'  Madeleine has come to any harm 

 ...  and that puts them at odds with Scotland Yard,  who, apparently  do  think there is reason to think Madeleine came to harm   (  in the apartment,  no less  )  ....   and not just came to harm either,  but that she may have  died there

[Serendipity]

Well it was a possibility the McCanns never acknowledged 

They have always insisted that there is no evidence that  'suggests'  Madeleine has come to any harm 

 ...  and that puts them at odds with Scotland Yard,  who, apparently  do  think there is reason to think Madeleine came to harm   (  in the apartment,  no less  )  ....   and not just came to harm either,  but that she may have  died there

SY are not best chuffed that they still have Tannerman as a prime suspect on their website despite having ruled him out but there is nothing they can do about it, they have no control over what the McCanns can and cannot say on it.

[Carew]

There was absolutely nothing rude in my post to you.

I simply said that your comment that posters such as myself should be able to guess that you had missed out words was ridiculous. It was and it remains so.

As for me muddying the waters. I disagree. The fact remains that the PJ clearly thought that there was a possibility of a death within the apartment back in 2007 as did anyone with an ounce of sense who was reading the reports of the case at the time.

There is absolutely nothing to demonstrate that the fact that SY have now mentioned that possibility has anything whatsoever to do with the dogs. Why it is constantly being introduced in this thread I have no idea. It could be to do with any part of their investigation or review. It may relate to a pattern of activity which they know one of their suspects has been involved in previously. It may come from some other forensic work which we have no knowledge of. This attempt to connect the dogs and that brief comment as if they were directly connected appears quite desperate to me.

Maybe if you spent more time reading what`s actually posted to you and less time writing wordy waffle here, there and everywhere to deflect from the point , you would have known it was a simple error........The correct wording was only a post or two above. There aren`t that many of mine on here.

Your wordiness, in my view, emphasises how difficult SY`s recent comments are for you to brush aside......The vigour with which you attempt to disconnect it with the dogs is where the desperation lies.

[Estuarine]

But... but... I don't understand? Isn't davel now saying that there was always a chance of Maddie (sic) Dying in the apartment and that sy saying that means nothing?

Mind.Blown.

Watch out for a long convoluted story about how you have misunderstood it and you are a fool for doing so and he was right all along because ......................................well you make up the rest. 

[sadie]

Well Scotland Yard seem to think it is reliable enough for them to announce that they think Madeleine may have died in the apartment

There is nothing else  that specifcally suggests  that possibilitly  afterall  ...  just the dog alerts

As far as YOU and I know.  we dont know everything, do we?

[gilet]

Maybe if you spent more time reading what`s actually posted to you and less time writing wordy waffle here, there and everywhere to deflect from the point , you would have known it was a simple error........The correct wording was only a post or two above. There aren`t that many of mine on here.....Just a nit-picking deflecting fuss from you.

Your wordiness, in my view, emphasises how difficult SY`s recent comments are for you to brush aside......The vigour with which you attempt to disconnect it with the dogs is where the desperation lies.

I do apologise if my correct and accurate use of English upsets you. I am afraid that I prefer carefully written prose to less accurate wording.

There is nothing difficult about it at all.

It is a fact that the possible death of Madeleine in and out of the apartment has been considered by the police since May 2007. It is a fact that since I joined this forum I have never denied either possibility.

It is also a fact that neither you nor I can offer any evidence that the recent statement regarding the potential death of Madeleine in the apartment is in any way connected with the dog alerts. It could be related to any aspect of the investigation.

Those who are trying to suggest it has a direct causal link to the dog alerts and suggests that SY have changed their minds since they very, very publicly stated that neither the McCanns nor their friends are persons of interest or suspects in the investigation are the ones sounding desperate in the extreme.

[gilet]

As far as YOU and I know.  we dont know everything, do we?

Exactly Sadie, the poster you are replying to has in fact no idea at all what prompted Redwood's comment and is simply basing his post on guesswork.

[sadie]

You still don't get it Dave.  As a professional expert dog handler Martin Grime has to be very careful how he words his reports for obvious reasons. He and Eddie had a long history of success together well before the McCann case, some of these cases Serendipity has already referred to. He knows very well what Eddie alerted to in apartment 5a but as he stated in his report, this cannot be confirmed or corroborated without scientific forensic evidence to back it up.  He didn't come out and declare that Madeleine died in apartment 5a but that doesn't mean it isn't true.

Is that an accusation, John?

[sadie]

SY are not best chuffed that they still have Tannerman as a prime suspect on their website despite having ruled him out but there is nothing they can do about it, they have no control over what the McCanns can and cannot say on it.

Do YOU KNOW that, or is it guess work?

[icabodcrane]

Exactly Sadie, the poster you are replying to has in fact no idea at all what prompted Redwood's comment and is simply basing his post on guesswork.

No,  I'm not  'guessing'  at all

I  ...  and you ...  and everyone else here,  knows  that Scotland Yard are aware a cadaver dog alerted in apartment 5A

The  'guessing'  is on the part of those who reject that is  the logical basis for Scotland Yard having said they think Madeleine may have died in the apartment,   and  'imagine'  there must be some other  ( unknown )  reason

I'm not guessing  ...   you  are    ( and there is a whiff of desperation about it  )   

[Carew]

I do apologise if my correct and accurate use of English upsets you. I am afraid that I prefer carefully written prose to less accurate wording.

There is nothing difficult about it at all.

It is a fact that the possible death of Madeleine in and out of the apartment has been considered by the police since May 2007. It is a fact that since I joined this forum I have never denied either possibility.

It is also a fact that neither you nor I can offer any evidence that the recent statement regarding the potential death of Madeleine in the apartment is in any way connected with the dog alerts. It could be related to any aspect of the investigation.

Those who are trying to suggest it has a direct causal link to the dog alerts and suggests that SY have changed their minds since they very, very publicly stated that neither the McCanns nor their friends are persons of interest or suspects in the investigation are the ones sounding desperate in the extreme.

(Off we go with the predictable self-praise.)

The rest has been said before.