Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?

[Mr Gray]

Was it last year or 2012 that the Higgs boson was proven to exist? Evidence of inflation theory was this month.

You're beginning to sound like a creationist with your "which to me is far from certain"....

I would put money on that the science will back up the theory one day. We just don't have tools sensitive enough to do it yet.

That is exactly the sort of things creationist say...the reason you don't agree with my posts is because you don't understand the science...there was quite a lot of evidence to support the existence of the Higgs so scientist knew it existed but it has only recently been detected

[Mr Gray]

How on earth do you arrive at that conclusion Dave?  Regardless of whichever way you want to construe these findings, Eddie detected the scent of death in that apartment and outside in the garden.  Granted there are multiple explanations for these findings but to state he found nothing is a huge falsehood on your behalf.

As for this somehow proving innocence, I'm afraid you will have to do better than that old son.

Who said eddie detected the scent of death...grime certainly didn't..its a huge falsehood on your behalf...plus john I said it points to the mccanns innocence...not proves it...another massive falsehood on your behalf

[John]

Who said eddie detected the scent of death...grime certainly didn't..its a huge falsehood on your behalf...plus john I said it points to the mccanns innocence...not proves it...another massive falsehood on your behalf

Well it just so happens that Eddie was a particularly talented dog who wasn't in the habit of throwing up false alerts.  There isn't much doubt that Eddie found what he was trained to find and given that a child disappeared from the same premises in suspicious circumstances it is little wonder that the connection was made.  And for the record, what Martin Grime believes and what he can state publicly may or may not be reconcilable so no falsehood there.

As for pointing to innocence I'm afraid the dog alerts point to involvement.  Fortunately for the suspects though the forensics came back inconclusive.  So there we have it, the EVRD alerted four times to cadaver contamination in and around apartment 5a but the origin of this contamination remains a mystery.

[Mr Gray]

Well it just so happens that Eddie was a particularly talented dog who wasn't in the habit of throwing up false alerts.  There isn't much doubt that Eddie found what he was trained to find and given that a child disappeared from the same premises in suspicious circumstances it is little wonder that the connection was made.  And for the record, what Martin Grime believes and what he can state publicly may or may not be reconcilable so no falsehood there.

As for pointing to innocence I'm afraid the dog alerts point to involvement.  Fortunately for the suspects though the forensics came back inconclusive.  So there we have it, the EVRD alerted four times to cadaver contamination in and around apartment 5a but the origin of this contamination remains a mystery.

So you agree eddie found nothing....

So grime lied in his police statement ...I don't think so...someone is telling lies and Im sure its not grime

[Mr Gray]

Well it just so happens that Eddie was a particularly talented dog who wasn't in the habit of throwing up false alerts.  There isn't much doubt that Eddie found what he was trained to find and given that a child disappeared from the same premises in suspicious circumstances it is little wonder that the connection was made.  And for the record, what Martin Grime believes and what he can state publicly may or may not be reconcilable so no falsehood there.

As for pointing to innocence I'm afraid the dog alerts point to involvement.  Fortunately for the suspects though the forensics came back inconclusive.  So there we have it, the EVRD alerted four times to cadaver contamination in and around apartment 5a but the origin of this contamination remains a mystery.

Your whole post is basically absurd..who said eddie alerted to cadaver contamination...grime said "may have"...

Are you telling me grime has told YOU something else and lied in his statement...absolutely bizarre

[John]

So you agree eddie found nothing....

So grime lied in his police statement ...I don't think so...someone is telling lies and Im sure its not grime

I think you are way off base on this one.  In Mr Grime's own words, "It is my view that it is possible that the EVRD is alerting to cadaver scent contamination. No evidential or intelligence reliability can be made from this alert unless it can be confirmed with corroborating evidence."

So your insistence that Eddie found nothing is clearly WRONG and mores to the point, Martin Grime never sad it!

[Mr Gray]

I think you are way off base on this one.  In Mr Grime's own words, "It is my view that it is possible that the EVRD is alerting to cadaver scent contamination. No evidential or intelligence reliability can be made from this alert unless it can be confirmed with corroborating evidence."

So your insistence that Eddie found nothing is clearly WRONG.

So for the third time...what did eddie find....



and you confirm grime said it is possible that they are alerted  he doesn't say they HAVE alerted..


I have bought a lottery ticket so it is POSSIBLE I might win.,.

[Brietta]

Reposted.....

"So you are suggesting that Grime's unconcious self just got lucky time after time after time? Thus rendering the dog's skills inadequate?"

You had the opportunity to address the question but chose to ignore it. If you do not accept the above statement then please explain how clever Hans is applied to this scenario.

Quote "Given that you are such a self appointed expert on cadaver dog handling, how EXACTLY did Grime prompt and cue Eddie? Given your claim this one should be very easy for you to answer." end Quote

Above is your original question to ferryman to which I suggested clever Hans. 

I feel you have swung off on a tangent since then. 

Given that there is absolutely no evidence to support Eddie’s alerts, I think you should take on board what Mr Grime had to say about it, which is in accord with law enforcement agencies worldwide.

Snip ~ The bottom line to a human scent K-9 handler is this; the dog alert must be corroborated by other evidence.  http://policek9.com/Fleck/Cadaver%20Dogs.pdf

There didn’t need to be handler interference ~ as you seem to think I implied ~ either conscious or subconscious for the dog to make a false alert and still be right. 

In Madeleine’s case the alerts in the car are easily explained as blood from a living person ~ not Madeleine’s; although it is not clear why Eddie should have alerted to one at the door and not the other in the boot. 

The blood that Eddie alerted to inside 5a had nothing to do with the McCann family either. 

As for cadaver scent outside and inside? Drains give off methane or sewer gas which is a component of decomposition. 
There is the oft quoted instance of a VRD alerting to the wrong place in a search because the scent of decomposition had been diverted via a broken drain. The discovery of a body proved him right. http://www.biologycorner.com/anatomy/senses/crimedogs.html

Eddie alerted; nothing of evidential value was found ~ nothing untoward about that ~ Eddie did his job without prejudice to him or his handler.
Please don't suggest I infer otherwise.

[John]

So for the third time...what did eddie find....



and you confirm grime said it is possible that they are alerted  he doesn't say they HAVE alerted..


I have bought a lottery ticket so it is POSSIBLE I might win.,.

And for the third time Eddie found what he was trained to find which just so happens to include cadaver contamination...smart doggie.  Many things are possible including Eddie being spot on!

So again, you're contention that he found nothing is by definition, WRONG.  Had he found NOTHING then Martin Grime wouldn't have had to have included all that information about 'NOTHING' in his very full Report.

[Alfred R Jones]

And for the third time Eddie found what he was trained to find which just so happens to include cadaver contamination...smart doggie.  Many things are possible including Eddie being spot on!

So again, you're contention that he found nothing is by definition, WRONG.

What, specifically, did he find then?

[Mr Gray]

And for the third time Eddie found what he was trained to find which just so happens to include cadaver contamination...smart doggie.  Many things are possible including Eddie being spot on!

So again, you're contention that he found nothing is by definition, WRONG.  Had he found NOTHING then Martin Grime wouldn't have had to have included all that information about 'NOTHING' in his very full Report.

He found cadaver contamination.....whats that...Grime said it was possible..not that he found it...so you are wrong John...eddie found nothing...keela did find some dried blood..




many things are possible and with my lottery ticket it is POSSIBLE.. I... MAY win the lottery

[John]

For the avoidance of doubt, only the area behind the sofa in apartment 5a was alerted to by the CSI or blood detection dog Keela.  Eddie alone alerted in the rear bedroom of the apartment in the immediate right hand corner by the door, on the veranda outside the parent's bedroom and in the garden area directly under said veranda.  Consequently, it cannot be claimed that all alerts related solely to blood.

[Carana]

And for the third time Eddie found what he was trained to find which just so happens to include cadaver contamination...smart doggie.  Many things are possible including Eddie being spot on!

So again, you're contention that he found nothing is by definition, WRONG.  Had he found NOTHING then Martin Grime wouldn't have had to have included all that information about 'NOTHING' in his very full Report.

Who is "he"? Eddie or Grime?

Eddie alerted. What to remains a mystery as there was no forensic corroboration of anything potentially significant for the case in question.

[Mr Gray]

What we should understand with this dog is that he only barks when he finds something, he won't bark at any other times. He won't bark at other dogs, he won't bark at strangers, he won't bark when somebody knocks on the door or anything like that. The only times I've ever known him bark since I've got him as a small puppy a) for his dinner and that's just excitement and that's one of the training methods we use to teach to bark when we want him to and when he actually finds something, he won't bark at other dogs, he won't bark at strangers, he won't bark when somebody knocks on the door or something like that, so again I would say that's a positive indication.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm

You can say what you like but that is NOT what Grime says...that's why your conclusions are wrong..

Grime uses words such as POSSIBLE and MAY....nothing definite...you are wrong

[Mr Gray]

For the avoidance of doubt, only the area behind the sofa in apartment 5a was alerted to by the CSI or blood detection dog Keela.  Eddie alone alerted in the rear bedroom of the apartment in the immediate right hand corner by the door, on the veranda outside the parent's bedroom and in the garden area directly under said veranda.  Consequently, it cannot be claimed that all alerts related solely to blood.

Eddie found evidence of possible cadaver contamination at three sites,  end off!

On that I would agree...possible...nothing definite...end of....that's of with one f