Author Topic: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?  (Read 380312 times)

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Offline pathfinder73

Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #1170 on: July 06, 2014, 07:41:08 PM »
Thankyou Brietta.
1. An interesting item in that pile is what appears to be a green item (with possibly yellow writing or design on it)?
2. The video may need colour correction? For this it would be useful to have an accurate photo to compare with the video image of the pack of tissues/pads on top of the sideboard - I have found images of similar packs but not the exact one.
3. In the video you posted, you can see a white pillow, and yellow pillowcases, at 9:03, on the table. These correspond exactly to the PJ file list and photos of items taken from living area. It should therefore be possible to see the checked trousers, the white sleeveless top, and the red plane t-shirt, somewhere in the video of Eddie searching the living area. The mystery is, in the living area video, where are they?

The alerted clothes weren't there or it would have been included in the report e.g. the dog didn't alert to the pants when passing them in the villa but he did alert in the gym. You won't find those alerted clothes in the villa footage.
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline pathfinder73

Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #1171 on: July 06, 2014, 07:50:08 PM »
What an unusual perspective you have on this case.

I will take that as  a compliment coming from you. There is lots of circumstantial evidence to connect everything and prove my theory but they require the body to try and find the cause of death. Smithman is the key.
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline sadie

Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #1172 on: July 06, 2014, 08:16:38 PM »
Good point. But providing a car has not been scrapped, even if it has been sold several times since May 2007, it is very easy for PJ to find the current owner and location, and obtain it for dog inspection.
That's good.  Hope they do that and there isn't a sudden flurry of scrapping and crushing cars

Offline Mr Moderator

Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #1173 on: July 06, 2014, 10:11:33 PM »
Seven years has passed and many of the cars used in 2007 will have changed hands possibly several times.  SY have created an impossible task for themselves, I fear it will all end in failure.

Offline pegasus

Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #1174 on: July 06, 2014, 10:59:31 PM »
How many times a car has changed hands makes no difference to Muzzy and Tito.
And 7 years is no problem either.

Offline pegasus

Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #1175 on: July 07, 2014, 01:19:03 AM »
http://youtu.be/FF_EZCp-zJQ?t=9m3s

At 9m3s see a white pillow and yellow pillowcases on the table.

What are pillow and pillowcases doing on the dining table, seems like an odd place for them?
« Last Edit: July 07, 2014, 01:21:32 AM by pegasus »

Offline Brietta

Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #1176 on: July 07, 2014, 01:24:35 AM »
http://youtu.be/FF_EZCp-zJQ?t=9m3s

At 9m3s see a white pillow and yellow pillowcases on the table.

What are pillow and pillowcases doing on the dining table, seems like an odd place for them?

with reference to the green and yellow item on the sideboard ... what are your thoughts on papers inside a carrier bag?
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline pegasus

Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #1177 on: July 07, 2014, 01:33:50 AM »
with reference to the green and yellow item on the sideboard ... what are your thoughts on papers inside a carrier bag?
Actually that is a good suggestion.
If so then it is a green carrier bag with yellow writing on.

It is possible to propose the same for the red item.
(The one I have previously suggested might be the red tshirt, folded, with white plane visible).
Might be a red carrier bag with a white design detail, with paperwork inside?


Offline Brietta

Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #1178 on: July 07, 2014, 03:03:46 AM »
Actually that is a good suggestion.
If so then it is a green carrier bag with yellow writing on.

It is possible to propose the same for the red item.
(The one I have previously suggested might be the red tshirt, folded, with white plane visible).
Might be a red carrier bag with a white design detail, with paperwork inside?

I can't see lettering on the red item. I think the white is reflected light. If it is not a folder with with a shiny cover it may be something red within a transparent bag?
I don't think it would be the folded tee shirt ... why would that be in a pile of papers? ... think it is more likely to be a large notebook or a folder.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2014, 01:47:56 PM by Mr Moderator »
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline Brietta

Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #1179 on: July 16, 2014, 03:37:58 PM »
In Madeleine’s case Eddie alerted and no-one knows to what. 
In Tia’s case the dog did not alert despite the presence of a body in the loft space.
So the cases are not comparable.

I was particularly interested when Moore said, “A crime scene is perishable – investigation is a consumer – it consumes time it consumes evidence the further you get from the actual crime the less chance you have, …” 

IMO that perfectly describes what happened by allowing the apartment to be used while the case was open.  It is also what happened when Martin Grime and his team were deployed so long after the event. 

He states the case has been ‘so badly botched’ that NSY will have started from scratch on it.  I think in any case that would have happened because in a cold case it would make sense to do so. 

But If this guy has a training role I bet he won’t be holding up the management of the crime scene in PDL as an exemplar of how it should be done to his students.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2014, 07:15:47 PM by Mr Moderator »
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline pegasus

Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #1180 on: July 16, 2014, 03:52:23 PM »
In Madeleine’s case Eddie alerted and no-one knows to what. 
In Tia’s case the dog did not alert despite the presence of a body in the loft space.
So the cases are not comparable.

I was particularly interested when Moore said, “A crime scene is perishable – investigation is a consumer – it consumes time it consumes evidence the further you get from the actual crime the less chance you have, …” 

IMO that perfectly describes what happened by allowing the apartment to be used while the case was open.  It is also what happened when Martin Grime and his team were deployed so long after the event. 

He states the case has been ‘so badly botched’ that NSY will have started from scratch on it.  I think in any case that would have happened because in a cold case it would make sense to do so. 

But If this guy has a training role I bet he won’t be holding up the management of the crime scene in PDL as an exemplar of how it should be done to his students.
In the Sharp case a cadaver dog did alert, the dog's name was Buster.
He alerted on the landing, underneath the loft.
It was Buster (not the Met) who solved the case.
If he did not alert on an earlier date, it was only because the target was well wrapped and the dog was not allowed access to the loft itself.
In general dogs are not deployed in lofts - apparently they cannot be trained to walk exclusively on loft floor joists.
This highlights a restriction of using these dogs - it is difficult to deploy them directly in lofts or other non-floor elevations.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2014, 03:56:54 PM by pegasus »

Alfred R Jones

  • Guest
Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #1181 on: July 16, 2014, 04:06:37 PM »
I find it astounding that one dog can apparently signal that it has smelt the one-time presence of a body in an apartment, a body that was in situ for (in the worst case scenario) a couple of hours three months previously but another dog  is unable to detect the mouldering presence of a corpse a few feet away, albeit one wrapped in a bag or carpet.  Wasn't the smell so bad in the case of Tia Sharpe that even the humans could smell something?  Hardly surprising the dog got there in the end!

Offline pegasus

Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #1182 on: July 16, 2014, 04:26:58 PM »
I find it astounding that one dog can apparently signal that it has smelt the one-time presence of a body in an apartment, a body that was in situ for (in the worst case scenario) a couple of hours three months previously but another dog  is unable to detect the mouldering presence of a corpse a few feet away, albeit one wrapped in a bag or carpet.  Wasn't the smell so bad in the case of Tia Sharpe that even the humans could smell something?  Hardly surprising the dog got there in the end!
It is possible to be more precise than "a few feet away". Probably 16 feet away would be a reasonably conservative estimate of the air flow distance? And that flow was half way along greatly impeded by a closed loft hatch. And further, the air flow in a house is generally by the "chimney effect" upwards from landing to loft, not the other way round. So Buster did a great job successfully solving the case from that distance and with that impeded airflow and its direction.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2014, 07:22:34 PM by Mr Moderator »

Alfred R Jones

  • Guest
Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #1183 on: July 16, 2014, 04:43:08 PM »
It is possible to be more precise than "a few feet away". Probably 16 feet away would be a reasonably conservative estimate of the air flow distance? And that flow was half way along greatly impeded by a closed loft hatch. And further, the air flow in a house is generally by the "chimney effect" upwards from landing to loft, not the other way round. So Buster did a great job successfully solving the case from that distance and with that impeded airflow and its direction.

Anyway, the point I was proposing is simply that the PJ did do one thing at least right, to preserve the scene, and that was having the occupants move out to a different apartment, as otherwise the mere presence of peeps living there would modify the scene further.
Tia's body was 3 feet from the hatch and so when dogs were directly under the hatch (assuming they searched upstairs) they would only have been a few feet from the body as I said.  The dogs were brought in three or 4 times before Buster eventually alerted, by which time the corpse had well and truly begun to reek.  Your excuses for why the dogs did not alert sooner do not satisfactorily explain why one dog can pick up the scent of a fresh body three months after it was removed, and another can't pick up the scent of a rotting corpse a few feet from its nose.  This may all seem very understandable to you, but not to me.

Offline pegasus

Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #1184 on: July 16, 2014, 04:55:15 PM »
Tia's body was 3 feet from the hatch and so when dogs were directly under the hatch (assuming they searched upstairs) they would only have been a few feet from the body as I said.  The dogs were brought in three or 4 times before Buster eventually alerted, by which time the corpse had well and truly begun to reek.  Your excuses for why the dogs did not alert sooner do not satisfactorily explain why one dog can pick up the scent of a fresh body three months after it was removed, and another can't pick up the scent of a rotting corpse a few feet from its nose.  This may all seem very understandable to you, but not to me.
OK I checked and you are correct with saying 3 feet from the hatch. This means that on Aug 8th when he signalled positively the loft, the airflow distance from target to Buster's nose  was about 10 feet right? And the airflow through the gaps around the loft hatchdoor was by "chimney effect" mostly upwards.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2014, 05:06:24 PM by pegasus »