Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?

[Carana]

I think the point is that despite the dogs alerting to what some refer to as the 'scent of death' - the police did not stop their search for a living child and Shannon was found. I won't say 'safe and well' as the conditions in which she was found leave a lot to be desired and had the search been delayed by a change in focus, who can tell what might have happened.

In the Shannon Mathews case the dogs did what they were trained to do ... but the humans then had to discover an explanation of why they had alerted as they did ... and in the interim continue working on the main objective which was locating the child who was fortunately alive.

Yes. In the absence of any forensic evidence, the officers had to work through every plausible reason that could account for the alert. One was no doubt that she had died there and her body removed, but it certainly wasn't the only one.

In 5A:
- Were the mattresses ever checked for soiling? Were they moved to check if there wasn't a blood-stained sock or bandaid underneath? (Keela was only tasked to check the cupboard.)

- Where did the beds come from? At one point it was a private residence belonging to Tasmin's granny, according to her statement. Did she have two beds in her bedroom when she was there? If not, where did that bedroom furniture come from? Was it all new or was some of it second-hand?

- None of the post-disappearance occupants appear to have been interviewed... did any of them have any kind of accident?

None of that seems to have been checked at the time, aside from casual enquiries as to whether anyone knew whether anyone had heard of someone dying in that flat.

[misty]

Yes. In the absence of any forensic evidence, the officers had to work through every plausible reason that could account for the alert. One was no doubt that she had died there and her body removed, but it certainly wasn't the only one.

In 5A:
- Were the mattresses ever checked for soiling? Were they moved to check if there wasn't a blood-stained sock or bandaid underneath? (Keela was only tasked to check the cupboard.)

- Where did the beds come from? At one point it was a private residence belonging to Tasmin's granny, according to her statement. Did she have two beds in her bedroom when she was there? If not, where did that bedroom furniture come from? Was it all new or was some of it second-hand?

- None of the post-disappearance occupants appear to have been interviewed... did any of them have any kind of accident?

None of that seems to have been checked at the time, aside from casual enquiries as to whether anyone knew whether anyone had heard of someone dying in that flat.

Michael McCann, the husband of Ruth McCann, owner of 5a, reportedly died in July 2006 in Liverpool (I am trying to trace the relevant records). There is no record of the PJ asking if any of the furniture from the home was ever shipped to Portugal (highly unlikely, I know, but still something to be ruled out)

[Carana]

Michael McCann, the husband of Ruth McCann, owner of 5a, reportedly died in July 2006 in Liverpool (I am trying to trace the relevant records). There is no record of the PJ asking if any of the furniture from the home was ever shipped to Portugal (highly unlikely, I know, but still something to be ruled out)

People on a budget doing up a place for holiday rentals often buy second-hand furniture. In quite a few countries, you can get the bed frame from a second-hand shop, but not mattresses. That, however, doesn't preclude people selling or giving them away privately.

I doubt that anyone would have had furniture shipped out to PT to furnish a holiday rental flat. Far easier to either buy new, or shop around for reasonable second-hand stuff.

[sadie]

Just for you...

NIPA, which you are keen on,

http://news.sky.com/story/844071/sniffer-dogs-can-hinder-police-work

Oh Yeah.  Had NEVER  heard of NIPA until I saw your webpage above.

I challenge you:

Show any place that I have talked about .... or mentioned NIPA

[sadie]

Michael McCann, the husband of Ruth McCann, owner of 5a, reportedly died in July 2006 in Liverpool (I am trying to trace the relevant records). There is no record of the PJ asking if any of the furniture from the home was ever shipped to Portugal (highly unlikely, I know, but still something to be ruled out)

We understand that Tasmins Grandpa died in hospital over there, but were his pyjamas brought back to that flat until they were finally disposed of.

I wonder where her grandma died, in the flat, or elsewhere?

[sadie]

Oh Yeah.  Had NEVER  heard of NIPA until I saw your webpage above.

I challenge you:

Show any place that I have talked about .... or mentioned NIPA

PS How about the citation asked for in my post earlier re someone dying on the bed at Sharon Matthews uncles flat ?

[slartibartfast]

PS How about the citation asked for in my post earlier re someone dying on the bed at Sharon Matthews uncles flat ?

Read the link.

[slartibartfast]

I think the point is that despite the dogs alerting to what some refer to as the 'scent of death' - the police did not stop their search for a living child and Shannon was found. I won't say 'safe and well' as the conditions in which she was found leave a lot to be desired and had the search been delayed by a change in focus, who can tell what might have happened.

In the Shannon Mathews case the dogs did what they were trained to do ... but the humans then had to discover an explanation of why they had alerted as they did ... and in the interim continue working on the main objective which was locating the child who was fortunately alive.

What you say is valid, however I think the suspicions raised by the inconsistencies in statements and ultimately refusal to answer questions amongst other things, coloured the PJ efforts in looking elsewhere.

[pathfinder73]

Madeleine, Anatomy of a Mystery

[Eleanor]

Madeleine, Anatomy of a Mystery

4.18.  Blood or a corpse.

[pathfinder73]

4.18.  Blood or a corpse.

Eddie didn't go inside the car. He alerted outside and was chasing a scent a good distance away from the car that he was trained to find. He also alerted on the clothes with no blood and at the wardrobe with no blood. Keela gets in close in the boot like Shep to alert to microscopic hidden blood.

[Eleanor]

Eddie didn't go inside the car. He alerted outside and was chasing a scent a good distance away from the car that he was trained to find. He also alerted on the clothes with no blood and at the wardrobe with no blood. Keela gets in close in the boot like Shep to alert to microscopic hidden blood.

I was referring to Shep.  He reacts to Blood and Corpse Scent.  As did Eddie and other Cadaver Dogs.

[pathfinder73]

I was referring to Shep.  He reacts to Blood and Corpse Scent.  As did Eddie and other Cadaver Dogs.

Yes you're correct.

MICK SWINDELLS (Dog Handler - former Police Sergeant)

Mick Swindells is one of Britain's top dog handlers. He is a former police Sergeant, based in Blackpool, Lancashire but was often called upon by other police forces for his expertise. Lancashire Constabulary was a pioneer in the training of dogs to sniff out dead bodies following the Moors Murders case in 1964. Mick is now a member of The Global Rescue Services charity based in Penmaenmawr in Conwy. The ex-Fylde officer was part of the joint operation by international rescue charities CANIS and Rapid UK after the Pakistani earthquake; he worked at the Margala Towers complex in Islamabad. The Global Rescue Services has branched out to help forensic science by training four dogs to find human remains. This specialist team of four handlers and dogs will be on call to help in murder enquiries and other incidents involving human remains. Mick Swindells has been featured in several British and Portuguese documentaries. He explains that what the dogs react to is totally intangible - likening it to a "fragrant soap" to the human nose. However, his greatest emphasis has been on the dog's inability to lie.





In 2000, freelance dog handler Mick Swindells and his Border collie Shep, a trained human cadaver dog, were called to a 15-acre field near Nottingham to help locate the suspected grave of a murder victim. Shep signalled in one spot and the surrounding area was quickly dug, but nothing was found. Later that day, police returned with an informant, who identified the grave. Shep had been out by a metre.
It transpired that, in digging the grave, the murderer had put his spade through a field drain, causing volatile compounds from the decomposing cadaver to enter the drain. About a metre downhill of the cadaver, the drain was broken, preventing those compounds from dispersing further. The drain had, in effect, separated the body from its scent, and Shep had signalled the dislodged source of that scent – the breakage in the drain.

[Eleanor]

Thanks, Pathfinder.

[sadie]

Is there anyone here with greater knowledge of the permability of metal, [none, no liguids or gases pass thru steell] and the capabilities of car door seals against storm water and draughts at speed, than I, an engineer who used metal and seals in tractor design?

If so let them speak.  I will listen


In many years of motoring,and sometimes at high speed, I have never had water come in nor a draught in a fairly modern car.  Have you?



If a car door and seal are good enough to hold out the elements, then the reverse is also true.   They will hold in everything including scents.


I repeat ... and please leave it up ... I cannot understand how cadavar odour could have escaped to the outside of the door.


To remind you, these doors and seals are not made of concrete, which has tiny voids and paths thru it, so is permeable.

Steel and rubber / plastic are impermeable; they do not allow anything to pass thru



Additionally, so Eddie alerted, but to what?  He alerts to blood and Human cadavar odour.  This could easily have been blood from a living person that he alerted to.

....... and Eddie also alerts to cadavarine from an assortment of sources