Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?

[Alice Purjorick]

What it boils down to. is this: no one knows precisely what caused. the dog alerts and there could be a number of different explanations for them, including the one time presence of a cadaver. Working out the probability that it was Madeleine's corpse they were alerting to is up to someone far more brilliant than me (over to Alice, perhaps?)

If the dog is trained to alert to certain stimuli why would you think, when it alerts it is alerting to stimuli other than those it has been trained to?
That smacks of using an oxygen concentration monitor then not believing there is potential danger when it alarms because you believe it is being set off by something else.
It cannot be proven the dog alerted to the cadaver scent of Madeleine but the fact the dog alerted will give the SIO a lead to follow which is one objective of the process. As there is no result thus far ..............?
I can see that causing concern.

[stephen25000]

Ah blood G-Unit the blood that could be human or pig blood,   fertiliser maybe?

You may laugh about it,  but a child was deemed dead because of the dogs findings.

Are you saying that human haemoglobin and pig haemoglobin are the same ?

[stephen25000]

It wasn't,  there good enough for you?    Madeleine did not lie in that apartment dead for 2 and a half to three hours then  hidden somewhere so spectacular that no one could find her,  then weeks later taken again in a car for disposal.

Was it DEFINATELY cadaver scent Stephen?

It doesn't need 2 and a half hours lace.

You need to do further research.

How do you know how long Madeleine was in the apartment ?

You weren't there, were you ?

[Lace]

Are you saying that human haemoglobin and pig haemoglobin are the same ?

I am saying that Grime stated they could not train the dogs to tell them apart Stephen,  so yes they were the same to the dogs.

[slartibartfast]

Well, let's say Shannon Matthews had been locked up in a dungeon and was still there to this day, undiscovered but being kept alive by her captor, you would presumably be insisting she was dead, right?  Similarly, you'd be convinced that Thomas Quick actually murdered all those people in Sweden on the basis of Zampo's alerts in the woods to this day, if it hadn't been revealed that he made a false confession to the murders, wouldn't you?

Some information about the Quick case.

https://kristinahultman.wordpress.com/2015/05/07/what-the-dogs-actually-found/

[stephen25000]

I am saying that Grime stated they could not train the dogs to tell them apart Stephen,  so yes they were the same to the dogs.

So what samples of blood showed pig heamoglobin then in the forensic analysis ?

[Lace]

So what samples of blood showed pig heamoglobin then in the forensic analysis ?

How many more times,  they didn't take any samples from the floor of the bedroom or the garden.

[stephen25000]

How many more times,  they didn't take any samples from the floor of the bedroom or the garden.

So, no pig remains were detected, as I said.

NEXT.

[Alfred R Jones]

Some information about the Quick case.

https://kristinahultman.wordpress.com/2015/05/07/what-the-dogs-actually-found/

I'm sorry but a blog by a conspiracy theorist (and every case has them) is not worthy of comment IMO.

[Alfred R Jones]

If the dog is trained to alert to certain stimuli why would you think, when it alerts it is alerting to stimuli other than those it has been trained to?
That smacks of using an oxygen concentration monitor then not believing there is potential danger when it alarms because you believe it is being set off by something else.
It cannot be proven the dog alerted to the cadaver scent of Madeleine but the fact the dog alerted will give the SIO a lead to follow which is one objective of the process. As there is no result thus far ..............?
I can see that causing concern.

When the monitor goes off, of course you have cause for concern.  It spurs you into action, you make the necessary checks and act accordingly.  I don't know what the fault rate in such equipment is, maybe low to non-existent so is it a valid comparison?  I don't know.  I prefer the metal detector analogy however, a beep will signify the presence of something worth investigating, however it will not always be treasure.  Same as the dogs IMO. 
As someone who has claimed (albeit in a round-about-read-through-the-lines kind of way) that you don't believe the parents covered up the death of their child, how do you rationalise the dog alerts to yourself?

[Alfred R Jones]

Apparently the dogs alert to a) cadaver b) blood. Take your pick. 

They can also alert falsely and are subject to unconscious handler bias, do you concede this is a possibility also?

[Brietta]

Are you saying that human haemoglobin and pig haemoglobin are the same ?

In my role as advisor to the U.S. Justice Department I have facilitated assessment of numerous cadaver search dog teams in the United States.

These dogs are exclusively trained using human cadaver sources.

When I introduced decomposing pig cadavers into training assessments 100 % of the animals alerted to the medium. (The products were obtained from whole piglet cadaver not processed food for human consumption).

The result from scientific experiments and research to date is suggestive that the scent of human and pig decomposing material is so similar that we are unable to 'train' the dog to distinguish between the two.

Martin Grime

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm


Since humans are incapable of knowing exactly what it is that the dogs may be reacting to ... without forensic corroboration ... an alert cannot be relied upon.

[Lace]

So, no pig remains were detected, as I said.

NEXT.

No blood of Madeleine's was found either Stephen,   as a matter of fact there was no evidence at all to suggest that Madeleine died in that apartment.

Now,   was the alert definitely to cadaver scent?

[stephen25000]

No blood of Madeleine's was found either Stephen,   as a matter of fact there was no evidence at all to suggest that Madeleine died in that apartment.

Now,   was the alert definitely to cadaver scent?

You seem to have forgotten that the forensic results were inconclusive, and that remains the case.

As to accidental death, I have made my views clear, and can you tell me please where accidental death has been ruled out in this case ?

[Lace]

So, no pig remains were detected, as I said.

NEXT.

If Amaral had done his job properly he would have had the floor of the bedroom forensically investigated too,  plus the soil in the garden.

He made his theory match the dogs findings.

Though I don't think he had a solid theory in his head,  one minute they stored the body in a freezer,  the next he was saying that Gerry was looking for Madeleine in a cave on the beach  [though it was proven that no way could Gerry have thrown Madeleine out to sea from the top of the cliffs]   the next he is saying they hid her in a coffin!!!