Author Topic: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?  (Read 380186 times)

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Offline Angelo222

Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #1440 on: October 02, 2015, 10:12:15 AM »
Could we keep to the topic please.
De troothe has the annoying habit of coming to the surface just when you least expect it!!

Je ne regrette rien!!

Offline Brietta

Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #1441 on: October 02, 2015, 10:23:24 AM »
I am well aware of that interview and the smug mr. mccann saying he knew better than other people.


Totally wrong, then again, I would not trust his judgments per se.

We are on a thread which discusses the reliability of Victim Recovery Dogs.

As the title implies ... that means dogs successfully finding human remains either in part or in full.

  ...  from Freedom of Information Request ... Reference number: 20090062 ... South Yorkshire Police  ...

However, we can provide the following details regarding Victim Search Dog deployments between 2003 and 2007:

As two teams working together: handler Ellis and dog Frankie, with handler Grime and dog Eddie have been deployed on twenty occasions, with the recovery of four bodies.

Working alone, Grime/Eddie have been deployed on seventeen occasions with the recovery of one body and Ellis/Frankie have been deployed on five occasions with the recovery of three bodies, this includes the recovery of two women in one grave.


I think the point to that may be ... if there is a body or parts of a body to be found, there is a fair chance the VRD will find it.  We know that Frankie also alerted in the case of Mrs Harron ... but the 'hit' is claimed by Eddie (whoever heard of Frankie or when he discovered people?).

But ... twenty deployments ~ four finds (Grime/Eddie + Ellis/Frankie)
seventeen deployments ~ one find(Grime/Eddie)
five deployments ~ three finds (Ellis/Frankie) doesn't really give a true picture of ability.

Were the eight bodies recovered the targets of the twenty ~ seventeen ~ five deployments over the four year period?  Or are there still thirty odd bodies out there still to be found?

Whatever ~ the figures rather debunk the 200 successful deployments claimed for Eddie.  It also prompts the question ... if a striker sets foot on the pitch twenty times in a row and scores twice, what is the important figure the twenty or the two?

I think the dogs are reliable if there is something there to be found ... going on the figures I think Frankie may well have the edge on Eddie. 
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

stephen25000

  • Guest
Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #1442 on: October 02, 2015, 10:26:50 AM »
We are on a thread which discusses the reliability of Victim Recovery Dogs.

As the title implies ... that means dogs successfully finding human remains either in part or in full.

  ...  from Freedom of Information Request ... Reference number: 20090062 ... South Yorkshire Police  ...

However, we can provide the following details regarding Victim Search Dog deployments between 2003 and 2007:

As two teams working together: handler Ellis and dog Frankie, with handler Grime and dog Eddie have been deployed on twenty occasions, with the recovery of four bodies.

Working alone, Grime/Eddie have been deployed on seventeen occasions with the recovery of one body and Ellis/Frankie have been deployed on five occasions with the recovery of three bodies, this includes the recovery of two women in one grave.


I think the point to that may be ... if there is a body or parts of a body to be found, there is a fair chance the VRD will find it.  We know that Frankie also alerted in the case of Mrs Harron ... but the 'hit' is claimed by Eddie (whoever heard of Frankie or when he discovered people?).

But ... twenty deployments ~ four finds (Grime/Eddie + Ellis/Frankie)
seventeen deployments ~ one find(Grime/Eddie)
five deployments ~ three finds (Ellis/Frankie) doesn't really give a true picture of ability.

Were the eight bodies recovered the targets of the twenty ~ seventeen ~ five deployments over the four year period?  Or are there still thirty odd bodies out there still to be found?

Whatever ~ the figures rather debunk the 200 successful deployments claimed for Eddie.  It also prompts the question ... if a striker sets foot on the pitch twenty times in a row and scores twice, what is the important figure the twenty or the two?

I think the dogs are reliable if there is something there to be found ... going on the figures I think Frankie may well have the edge on Eddie.

As I said to ferryman the other day, several times.

If you have a problem with Grime, take it up with him yourself.

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #1443 on: October 02, 2015, 10:31:43 AM »
As I said to ferryman the other day, several times.

If you have a problem with Grime, take it up with him yourself.

There is no need...those that matter understand the alerts

Offline Angelo222

Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #1444 on: October 02, 2015, 10:35:24 AM »
There is no need...those that matter understand the alerts

I don't see how since even Grime can't be sure what they meant??
De troothe has the annoying habit of coming to the surface just when you least expect it!!

Je ne regrette rien!!

ferryman

  • Guest
Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #1445 on: October 02, 2015, 10:35:43 AM »
We are on a thread which discusses the reliability of Victim Recovery Dogs.

As the title implies ... that means dogs successfully finding human remains either in part or in full.

  ...  from Freedom of Information Request ... Reference number: 20090062 ... South Yorkshire Police  ...

However, we can provide the following details regarding Victim Search Dog deployments between 2003 and 2007:

As two teams working together: handler Ellis and dog Frankie, with handler Grime and dog Eddie have been deployed on twenty occasions, with the recovery of four bodies.

Working alone, Grime/Eddie have been deployed on seventeen occasions with the recovery of one body and Ellis/Frankie have been deployed on five occasions with the recovery of three bodies, this includes the recovery of two women in one grave.


I think the point to that may be ... if there is a body or parts of a body to be found, there is a fair chance the VRD will find it.  We know that Frankie also alerted in the case of Mrs Harron ... but the 'hit' is claimed by Eddie (whoever heard of Frankie or when he discovered people?).

But ... twenty deployments ~ four finds (Grime/Eddie + Ellis/Frankie)
seventeen deployments ~ one find(Grime/Eddie)
five deployments ~ three finds (Ellis/Frankie) doesn't really give a true picture of ability.

Were the eight bodies recovered the targets of the twenty ~ seventeen ~ five deployments over the four year period?  Or are there still thirty odd bodies out there still to be found?

Whatever ~ the figures rather debunk the 200 successful deployments claimed for Eddie.  It also prompts the question ... if a striker sets foot on the pitch twenty times in a row and scores twice, what is the important figure the twenty or the two?

I think the dogs are reliable if there is something there to be found ... going on the figures I think Frankie may well have the edge on Eddie.

A couple of other interesting points from that answer.  It refers to Grime working alone with Eddie or working with another dog and another handler, tending to support what I have all along asserted: that standard procedure and protocol for police dog deployment is that one handler may not handle more than one dog at the same crime scene. 

Of course, in the first enquiry, we saw Grime handle two dogs, unlike in the present enquiry, where two dogs were deployed, AND two handlers.

The point of interest is that Eddie's full CV features him working alone with Grime, or with another dog Frankie, but NOT with Keela, rooting back to a question I put elsewhere about whether Eddie and Keela had worked together before PdL.

And finally, that answer rather puts in the shade Grime's claim for Eddie of operational deployment and over 200 cases!

The absence of any reference to training on human remains in America is a bit of a surprise, too ....

ETA: Brietta has snipped the answer slightly.

That question asked what training or preparation Eddie had received to equip him for his duties as a police dog.

No reference to "enhanced" training on human remains in America.

Why not?
« Last Edit: October 02, 2015, 10:45:28 AM by ferryman »

stephen25000

  • Guest
Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #1446 on: October 02, 2015, 10:38:02 AM »
There is no need...those that matter understand the alerts


Those that matter ?

Perchance do you mean SY ?

AND THEY HAVE FOUND................................................


Offline pathfinder73

Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #1447 on: October 02, 2015, 11:21:50 AM »
I don't see how since even Grime can't be sure what they meant??

Grime has no doubts what they meant but he has to cover his ass incase the nearly impossible happens and she turns up alive.
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

ferryman

  • Guest
Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #1448 on: October 02, 2015, 11:27:53 AM »
Grime has no doubts what they meant but he has to cover his ass incase the nearly impossible happens and she turns up alive.

So do you think Grime was certain that when Eddie picked up cuddle-cat and played with it, Eddie could NOT detect a scent.

Or was Grime certain that when the toy was hidden in a cupboard, Eddie COULD detect a scent?

Offline pegasus

Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #1449 on: October 02, 2015, 11:56:49 AM »
So do you think Grime was certain that when Eddie picked up cuddle-cat and played with it, Eddie could NOT detect a scent.

Or was Grime certain that when the toy was hidden in a cupboard, Eddie COULD detect a scent?
Or was it on the dining chair when he barked at that? (see GA book).

Offline Brietta

Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #1450 on: October 02, 2015, 12:40:29 PM »
Or was it on the dining chair when he barked at that? (see GA book).

He was all over the place.

He barked in the direction of the files on top of the cupboard.

He barked in the direction of his handler.

He barked in the direction of the chair.

Nothing was sent to forensics for examination ... therefore his barking was a total irrelevance.

"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

stephen25000

  • Guest
Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #1451 on: October 02, 2015, 12:45:13 PM »
He was all over the place.

He barked in the direction of the files on top of the cupboard.

He barked in the direction of his handler.

He barked in the direction of the chair.

Nothing was sent to forensics for examination ... therefore his barking was a total irrelevance.

So your an expert now in the use of forensic dogs as well. @)(++(*

Offline Alice Purjorick

Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #1452 on: October 02, 2015, 12:53:35 PM »
Maybe the thread title should be changed to "Were Eddie and Keela a Pile of S**te"?
Despite the true thread title the conversation never drifts far from how rubbish Eddie and Keela were in the eyes of people who can't know much about VR and CSI dogs. If they did know about such dogs they would be making shedsful of dosh freelancing rather than spending inordinate amounts of time posting on here how rubbish two specific dogs and their handler were  8(>((
"Navigating the difference between weird but normal grief and truly suspicious behaviour is the key for any detective worth his salt.". ….Sarah Bailey

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #1453 on: October 02, 2015, 12:58:24 PM »
Maybe the thread title should be changed to "Were Eddie and Keela a Pile of S**te"?
Despite the true thread title the conversation never drifts far from how rubbish Eddie and Keela were in the eyes of people who can't know much about VR and CSI dogs. If they did know about such dogs they would be making shedsful of dosh freelancing rather than spending inordinate amounts of time posting on here how rubbish two specific dogs and their handler were  8(>((

No one to my mind says the dogs are rubbish
They simply didn't find anything useful because there was nothing to find

Offline pegasus

Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #1454 on: October 02, 2015, 12:58:39 PM »
After Eddie alerted to a burned-out and hose-drenched Lantra in Strabane, was any physical evidence obtained from that car and identified in a lab?