Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?

[Brietta]

If we take the two Eddie alerts inside the apartment as primary can you see that they are compatible with a scenario in which both parents and group are completely uninvolved. These two alerts could be the direct result of actions of a stranger intruder in the apartment. Why not investigate these alerts in that light? Obviously given that one of the alerts was at a shelf where a pile of clothes was stored during that meal, it would directly explain the clothing alerts too. That leaves only the vehicle alert which would be secondary transfer from those clothes.

What vehicle alert, Pegasus?   It is on record that his alert at the car door was as a result of cellular material on the key fob which was attributed to Madeleine's father.

I do not believe that an intruder who had killed Madeleine would have put him\herself at greater risk by removing her remains from the scene.

Eye witness reports of men taking an interest in the apartment on the day Madeleine disappeared and in the run up to the 3rd have convinced me her abduction was planned.
Whether by one individual or a group of people I have no idea ... I think she was stalked, I don't think it was opportunistic or a burglar.

[pegasus]

There are two difficulties of tying what you suggest in with Eddie's alert.

The first is that if an intruder killed Madeleine in the apartment and took her body, there would be no time for accumulation of a death scent inside the apartment.

And the second is that if an intruder killed Madeleine inside the apartment and left her body there, who found her body? ....

I honestly don't see either being right.

How about this very hypothetically?
An intruder (a petty burglar who is a complete stranger nothing to do with the group) enters just after end of 9.05pm check, somehow triggers an accident, hides evidence within apartment, takes nothing, flees, but later reenters apartment and removes evidence just before start of 10.00pm check. Same time period as Amaral theory but with complete non-involvement of parents and the whole group.

[Brietta]

How about this very hypothetically?
An intruder (a petty burglar who is a complete stranger nothing to do with the group) enters just after end of 9.05pm check, somehow triggers an accident, hides evidence within apartment, takes nothing, flees, but later reenters apartment and removes evidence just before start of 10.00pm check. Same time period as Amaral theory but with complete non-involvement of parents and the whole group.

Too complicated.  It was simple and it was done quickly, simply and smoothly.

[ferryman]

How about this very hypothetically?
An intruder (a petty burglar who is a complete stranger nothing to do with the group) enters just after end of 9.05pm check, somehow triggers an accident, hides evidence within apartment, takes nothing, flees, but later reenters apartment and removes evidence just before start of 10.00pm check. Same time period as Amaral theory but with complete non-involvement of parents and the whole group.

I've read your post and Brietta's below, and I'm inclined to agree with Brietta.

I really see an intruder, having committed a fatal act, returning to the scene of (almost certainly his) crime.

[G-Unit]

What's your explanation of why Grime was handed the video of the vehicle inspection for personal, promotional, use elsehwhere; and for the fact that was the one, and only, inspection he wore the anti-cross contamination suit of his trade?

Sorry, ferryman, I have no interest in engaging with your attempts to discredit Grime.

[pegasus]

I've read your post and Brietta's below, and I'm inclined to agree with Brietta.

I really see an intruder, having committed a fatal act, returning to the scene of (almost certainly his) crime.

Agreed it's extremely unlikely. I was just trying to invent an intruder theory with an extended time period.

[pegasus]

Too complicated.  It was simple and it was done quickly, simply and smoothly.

Agreed, too complicated. But I still think there must be scenarios in which the alerts are meaningful but with complete non-involvement of parents and group.

[mercury]

Agreed, too complicated. But I still think there must be scenarios in which the alerts are meaningful but with complete non-involvement of parents and group.

There may be and there maybe not

[Brietta]

What's your explanation of why Grime was handed the video of the vehicle inspection for personal, promotional, use elsehwhere; and for the fact that was the one, and only, inspection he wore the anti-cross contamination suit of his trade?

One very expensive coconut shell and an equally expensive soiled tissue.

I have never quite got my head around making a promotional video containing material relevant to an active case which at the time had the possibility of coming to court.

Perhaps even at that stage, Martin Grime knew that there was no possibility 'the dogs and their findings" would ever be used in any court case.
He didn't need to wait for the forensics to come back from the car; he knew Eddie hadn't alerted to cadaver scent.
I wonder if he explained that to Lenny Harper at the promotional viewing?


**Snip
Just 11 days before Jersey's deputy police chief Lenny Harper made the island a byword for horror by claiming to have found the 'partial remains of a child' beneath the Haut de la Garenne former children's home, he was adamantly refusing to dig for bodies.
'We have not a shred of evidence to suggest there is anything there,' he told his forensic services manager Vicky Coupland in an email dated February 12, 2008 and obtained by The Mail on Sunday.
According to any 'reasoned assessment', Harper added, it was hard to see how a child could have been entombed in concrete in an institution full of children.
He said: 'There is going to be blood from spotty teenagers. We could end up being massively distracted by small bits of blood that have no relevance. In all the statements and intelligence we have not even a suggestion that there may be or have been bodies.'
If only Harper had stuck to that view, he would have prevented much expense and anguish.

**Snip
As the emails to Coupland demonstrate, at first Harper displayed a healthy scepticism. So what made him change his mind? According to a senior detective who worked on Harper's team, one factor was sniffer dog Eddie's handler, Martin Grime.
'Grime made a presentation, showing him [Harper] a video of the dog finding the "scent of death" in Kate and Gerry McCann's car,' the detective said.
'They were still formal suspects and the case had got worldwide publicity. It seemed to get Lenny very excited. I think Grime kind of bewitched him.'

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1217863/Bungled-Jersey-child-abuse-probe-branded-20million-shambles.html#ixzz3nXoLecpc

[Brietta]

Agreed, too complicated. But I still think there must be scenarios in which the alerts are meaningful but with complete non-involvement of parents and group.

I place absolutely no value on Eddie's alerts in the apartment. If there had been any point to them it would have been as a means of determining pointers as to what may have happened to Madeleine McCann.
I think the concept of 'cadaver odour' the interpretation of which remains as baffling today as it was then and the ready acceptance of it as an indicator of Madeleine's parents guilt did more to corrupt the search for her than the sum of all the other errors made in her case.

[pegasus]

What's your explanation of why Grime was handed the video of the vehicle inspection for personal, promotional, use elsehwhere; and for the fact that was the one, and only, inspection he wore the anti-cross contamination suit of his trade?

The EVRD handlers in the SY team in PDL wore no forensic suits, and did cue their EVRDs

[mercury]

One very expensive coconut shell and an equally expensive soiled tissue.

I have never quite got my head around making a promotional video containing material relevant to an active case which at the time had the possibility of coming to court.

Perhaps even at that stage, Martin Grime knew that there was no possibility 'the dogs and their findings" would ever be used in any court case.
He didn't need to wait for the forensics to come back from the car; he knew Eddie hadn't alerted to cadaver scent.
I wonder if he explained that to Lenny Harper at the promotional viewing?


**Snip
Just 11 days before Jersey's deputy police chief Lenny Harper made the island a byword for horror by claiming to have found the 'partial remains of a child' beneath the Haut de la Garenne former children's home, he was adamantly refusing to dig for bodies.
'We have not a shred of evidence to suggest there is anything there,' he told his forensic services manager Vicky Coupland in an email dated February 12, 2008 and obtained by The Mail on Sunday.
According to any 'reasoned assessment', Harper added, it was hard to see how a child could have been entombed in concrete in an institution full of children.
He said: 'There is going to be blood from spotty teenagers. We could end up being massively distracted by small bits of blood that have no relevance. In all the statements and intelligence we have not even a suggestion that there may be or have been bodies.'
If only Harper had stuck to that view, he would have prevented much expense and anguish.

**Snip
As the emails to Coupland demonstrate, at first Harper displayed a healthy scepticism. So what made him change his mind? According to a senior detective who worked on Harper's team, one factor was sniffer dog Eddie's handler, Martin Grime.
'Grime made a presentation, showing him [Harper] a video of the dog finding the "scent of death" in Kate and Gerry McCann's car,' the detective said.
'They were still formal suspects and the case had got worldwide publicity. It seemed to get Lenny very excited. I think Grime kind of bewitched him.'

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1217863/Bungled-Jersey-child-abuse-probe-branded-20million-shambles.html#ixzz3nXoLecpc

Still being disingenuous and sensationalist I see, Eddie the cadaver dog was not trained to and did not alert to a coconut....but I must admit yu get near to beng funny which is an improvement for you when you say Grime bewitched a senior police officer

 

[Brietta]

Still being disingenuous and sensationalist I see, Eddie the cadaver dog was not trained to and did not alert to a coconut....but I must admit yu get near to beng funny which is an improvement for you when you say Grime bewitched a senior police officer

 

I don't know if it is worth while to point out that the word "bewitched" is not mine ... probably not.

Eddie ... the cadaver dog ... alerted to coconut in Haute de la Garenne.  Proving beyond doubt that placing any reliance on his 'findings' on any other occasion without forensic corroboration is a very silly thing to do.

[mercury]

I don't know if it is worth while to point out that the word "bewitched" is not mine ... probably not.

Eddie ... the cadaver dog ... alerted to coconut in Haute de la Garenne.  Proving beyond doubt that placing any reliance on his 'findings' on any other occasion without forensic corroboration is a very silly thing to do.

You just cannot in any way shape or form assert this Brietta....not at all, at all, you are free to thnk or wish but that's all basically as cadaver dogs don't alert to coconuts dear

and ETA both you and Ferryman are the very silly ones here that try to promulgate the idea that Eddie is pretty useless , and others who say he might have smelt a mushroom, or a pork chop in the bedroom, and all the other totally ludicrous suggestions,  but it suits your rancid agenda doesn't it? All very laughable and puerile at best, what exactly are yu afraid of dear?

[Brietta]

You just cannot in any way shape or form assert this Brietta....not at all, at all, you are free to thnk or wish but that's all basically as cadaver dogs don't alert to coconuts dear

and ETA both you and Ferryman are the very silly ones here that try to promulgate the idea that Eddie is pretty useless , and others who say he might have smelt a mushroom, or a pork chop in the bedroom, and all the other totally ludicrous suggestions,  but it suits your rancid agenda doesn't it? All very laughable and puerile at best, what exactly are yu afraid of dear?

Of course I can assert anything that is accurate and a matter of record. 

Because you are unable to accept the unreliability of Eddie's 'alerts' doesn't mean it didn't happen and reiterating denial of what is recorded officially as a fact is beginning to look a bit desperate as well as ill informed.


It is recorded in OPERATION HAVEN
https://www.gov.je/SiteCollectionDocuments/Government%20and%20administration/R%20WiltshireOperationHavenRedacted%2020081112%20JN.pdf

• After being examined by experts from the British Museum, a fragment thought to have been from a skull turned out to be a piece of Victorian coconut shell.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/jersey/7723860.stm