Author Topic: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?  (Read 340724 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline jassi

Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #1755 on: October 06, 2015, 11:16:22 AM »
Eddie alerted to a sex clean up tissue.  Was he trained to alert to such things?  Do you think there might have been a corpse buried under the tissue and it was his stupid handler who assumed it was the tissue he was alerting to?

According to Wiki, cadaverine can be found in sperm.
" Basic amines such as putrescine, spermine, spermidine and cadaverine are responsible for the smell and flavor of semen. "
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semen

Isn't Google wonderful  8)--))
I believe everything. And l believe nothing.
I suspect everyone. And l suspect no one.
I gather the facts, examine the clues... and before   you know it, the case is solved!"

Or maybe not -

OG have been pushed out by the Germans who have reserved all the deck chairs for the foreseeable future

Offline G-Unit

Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #1756 on: October 06, 2015, 11:19:07 AM »
Eddie alerted to a sex clean up tissue.  Was he trained to alert to such things?  Do you think there might have been a corpse buried under the tissue and it was his stupid handler who assumed it was the tissue he was alerting to?

do you have a cite for that please Alfred?
Read and abide by the forum rules.
Result = happy posting.
Ignore and break the rules
Result = edits, deletions and unhappiness
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?board=2.0

ferryman

  • Guest
Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #1757 on: October 06, 2015, 11:21:12 AM »
My argument is that it's not known if Eddie was right or wrong. People saying he was wrong need to present evidence for their assertions otherwise it's just speculation.

There is only one argument: evidence admissible in court.

You can occasionally get intelligence, which can lead to the finding of evidence admissible in court.

In fact a dog alert that produces evidence admissible in court is precisely that: intelligence.

And uncorroborated dog alerts are intelligence which leads no where.

Not worth a bean.

Nil.

Nada.

Nothing.

ferryman

  • Guest
Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #1758 on: October 06, 2015, 11:33:57 AM »
do you have a cite for that please Alfred?

http://voiceforprotest.blogspot.co.uk/2010/03/operation-rectangle-summary-report.html

'VT / 9 Trench and gun emplacement containing small personnel shelter. Forensic examination revealed recently deposited tissues that appeared to have been used to ‘clean up following sexual intercourse’. It would appear that the shelter had been used as a venue for courting couples. This alert is within the trained parameters of the dog’s repertoire and is a satisfactory explanation of the alert.
Base of an oak tree planted as a memorial to the two sons of Mr Hamon, Flat 2 Delborgho Lodge, Upper Clarendon Road, St Hellier. The cremated remains of the two adult sons had been previously scattered just under the surface of the ground and the tree planted as a permanent memorial together with a plaque. This alert is within the trained parameters of the dog’s repertoire and is a satisfactory explanation of the alert.
There being no other points of interest, intelligence led excavation of the site commenced to locate and investigate defensive positions by excavation, forensic examination and canine screening.'

Offline G-Unit

Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #1759 on: October 06, 2015, 11:36:13 AM »
According to Wiki, cadaverine can be found in sperm.
" Basic amines such as putrescine, spermine, spermidine and cadaverine are responsible for the smell and flavor of semen. "
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semen

Isn't Google wonderful  8)--))

The scent of a human corpse is complex. it is the sum of all the constituents of the scent which the dogs alert to, not any part of them.
Read and abide by the forum rules.
Result = happy posting.
Ignore and break the rules
Result = edits, deletions and unhappiness
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?board=2.0

Offline jassi

Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #1760 on: October 06, 2015, 11:45:45 AM »
The scent of a human corpse is complex. it is the sum of all the constituents of the scent which the dogs alert to, not any part of them.

Yes, I was reading something the other day about scientists  identified several 'death' components by their chemical composition  which could be detected by instruments, rather than having to rely solely on dog alerts
I believe everything. And l believe nothing.
I suspect everyone. And l suspect no one.
I gather the facts, examine the clues... and before   you know it, the case is solved!"

Or maybe not -

OG have been pushed out by the Germans who have reserved all the deck chairs for the foreseeable future

Offline G-Unit

Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #1761 on: October 06, 2015, 11:47:52 AM »
http://voiceforprotest.blogspot.co.uk/2010/03/operation-rectangle-summary-report.html

'VT / 9 Trench and gun emplacement containing small personnel shelter. Forensic examination revealed recently deposited tissues that appeared to have been used to ‘clean up following sexual intercourse’. It would appear that the shelter had been used as a venue for courting couples. This alert is within the trained parameters of the dog’s repertoire and is a satisfactory explanation of the alert.
Base of an oak tree planted as a memorial to the two sons of Mr Hamon, Flat 2 Delborgho Lodge, Upper Clarendon Road, St Hellier. The cremated remains of the two adult sons had been previously scattered just under the surface of the ground and the tree planted as a permanent memorial together with a plaque. This alert is within the trained parameters of the dog’s repertoire and is a satisfactory explanation of the alert.
There being no other points of interest, intelligence led excavation of the site commenced to locate and investigate defensive positions by excavation, forensic examination and canine screening.'

So we know for both dogs to alert there must have been blood on those tissues
https://madeleinemccannthetruth.wordpress.com/2013/05/24/the-dogs-their-findings-and-facts/
Read and abide by the forum rules.
Result = happy posting.
Ignore and break the rules
Result = edits, deletions and unhappiness
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?board=2.0

ferryman

  • Guest
Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #1762 on: October 06, 2015, 12:03:23 PM »
This alert is within the trained parameters of the dog’s repertoire and is a satisfactory explanation of tht.

Singular possessive.

Just one dog.

Offline G-Unit

Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #1763 on: October 06, 2015, 12:16:52 PM »
This alert is within the trained parameters of the dog’s repertoire and is a satisfactory explanation of tht.

Singular possessive.

Just one dog.

Really?

V/T 9 Re-enforced concrete machine gun post and protective trench, personnel shelter attached. Earth and debris removed by hand and plant machinery to allow access.

The forensic strategy was implemented with the following results.

EVRD – positive indication.
SOCO visual – positive.
Blood dog - positive indication.
Visual – positive
UV – negative (items removed prior to screening).
Quasar - negative


Positive indications confirmed as being recently deposited tissues used to clean up after sex by unknown persons. Offences not suspected at this stage. Retained as exhibit should there be future reports of offences. There will be no forensic submission at this stage.

http://voiceforprotest.blogspot.co.uk/2010/03/operation-rectangle-summary-report.html
Read and abide by the forum rules.
Result = happy posting.
Ignore and break the rules
Result = edits, deletions and unhappiness
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?board=2.0

Offline pathfinder73

Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #1764 on: October 06, 2015, 12:39:22 PM »
Extracts from Operation Rectangle Summary

"Among the victims were a few who said that children had been dragged from their beds at night screaming and had then disappeared. Two others said they had knowledge of human remains at the location but were not specific. A local advocate also came to police and said he had a client who knew there were human remains buried at the home.”

“Information exists of the previous finding of buried bones co mingled with a pair of children’s shoes and fragments of cloth.”

“Anecdotal witness evidence suggested that bones found by builders completing renovations near to the north west stairwell may have been of human origin. An alert indication by the EVRD in this area resulted in the excavation of the site by forensic archaeologists. During this intrusive procedure a 2 inch X 2 inch piece of what appeared to be bone was recovered. This was preliminarily identified ‘in the field’ as possibly being juvenile human skull by the forensic anthropologist and was submitted for confirmation including species carbon dating and DNA.”

“The teeth recovered from cellars 3-4 were identified as juvenile human deciduous teeth and have been conveyed to the UK for further analysis.”

“Anecdotal witness evidence was suggestive of juvenile human bones being recovered from the area of the north-western stairwell during recent building renovations in 2003.”

“Human remains deposited within the ground in that area would contaminate the ground, and any porous material within it. The dog’s reactions were therefore consistent with this scenario.”

“A significant number of bone fragments and teeth have been recovered which have been corroborated as human. The remains are at the present time undergoing forensic testing including carbon dating procedures.”

“Control testing of the EVRD would suggest that although the dog alerted to specific areas where human remains were situated the entire top two inches of soil within this area is contaminated with human cadaver odour. Enquiries at this time are suggestive that the human remains were deposited in this area and covered with top soil in a deliberate act of concealment. The deposition could only have taken place during a period of time when the floor had been removed. Research into the historical renovation of the property suggests that the floor above cellars 3, 4 &5 was taken up in the late 60’s early 70’s.”

“Karl Harrison’s archaeological theory of the burnt debris including human bone fragments and teeth being deposited in the east wing cellars from the west wing is contained within this report. This theory is suggestive that the solid fuel furnace in operation in the west wing around the time of 1960 – 1970 may have been used to dispose of human remains.”

"Enquiries to date are showing that the original solid fuel central heating and hot water supply furnace in the west wing was replaced in the late 60’s early 70’s with oil fired furnaces. This may have coincided with the floor in cellars 3, 4 & 5 being removed. This would explain the deposition of the bone fragments and teeth with ash deposits as being the waste from the furnace upon decommissioning. It would also suggest some element of ‘guilty knowledge’.

“The series of tests involved the use of samples of soot and debris from the chimney situated in the plant room that was in use at the time the solid fuel furnace was in operation. The tests were completed in such a way as to isolate the samples from containers, human ‘live’ scent and other distracters."

"The tests clearly indicated the presence of human remains decomposition scent.” (END)

http://voiceforchildren.blogspot.com/2010/12/operation-rectanglecase-closed.html
« Last Edit: October 06, 2015, 12:46:58 PM by pathfinder73 »
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

ferryman

  • Guest
Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #1765 on: October 06, 2015, 01:18:29 PM »
Extracts from Operation Rectangle Summary

"Among the victims were a few who said that children had been dragged from their beds at night screaming and had then disappeared. Two others said they had knowledge of human remains at the location but were not specific. A local advocate also came to police and said he had a client who knew there were human remains buried at the home.”

“Information exists of the previous finding of buried bones co mingled with a pair of children’s shoes and fragments of cloth.”

“Anecdotal witness evidence suggested that bones found by builders completing renovations near to the north west stairwell may have been of human origin. An alert indication by the EVRD in this area resulted in the excavation of the site by forensic archaeologists. During this intrusive procedure a 2 inch X 2 inch piece of what appeared to be bone was recovered. This was preliminarily identified ‘in the field’ as possibly being juvenile human skull by the forensic anthropologist and was submitted for confirmation including species carbon dating and DNA.”

“The teeth recovered from cellars 3-4 were identified as juvenile human deciduous teeth and have been conveyed to the UK for further analysis.”

“Anecdotal witness evidence was suggestive of juvenile human bones being recovered from the area of the north-western stairwell during recent building renovations in 2003.”

“Human remains deposited within the ground in that area would contaminate the ground, and any porous material within it. The dog’s reactions were therefore consistent with this scenario.”

“A significant number of bone fragments and teeth have been recovered which have been corroborated as human. The remains are at the present time undergoing forensic testing including carbon dating procedures.”

“Control testing of the EVRD would suggest that although the dog alerted to specific areas where human remains were situated the entire top two inches of soil within this area is contaminated with human cadaver odour. Enquiries at this time are suggestive that the human remains were deposited in this area and covered with top soil in a deliberate act of concealment. The deposition could only have taken place during a period of time when the floor had been removed. Research into the historical renovation of the property suggests that the floor above cellars 3, 4 &5 was taken up in the late 60’s early 70’s.”

“Karl Harrison’s archaeological theory of the burnt debris including human bone fragments and teeth being deposited in the east wing cellars from the west wing is contained within this report. This theory is suggestive that the solid fuel furnace in operation in the west wing around the time of 1960 – 1970 may have been used to dispose of human remains.”

"Enquiries to date are showing that the original solid fuel central heating and hot water supply furnace in the west wing was replaced in the late 60’s early 70’s with oil fired furnaces. This may have coincided with the floor in cellars 3, 4 & 5 being removed. This would explain the deposition of the bone fragments and teeth with ash deposits as being the waste from the furnace upon decommissioning. It would also suggest some element of ‘guilty knowledge’.

“The series of tests involved the use of samples of soot and debris from the chimney situated in the plant room that was in use at the time the solid fuel furnace was in operation. The tests were completed in such a way as to isolate the samples from containers, human ‘live’ scent and other distracters."

"The tests clearly indicated the presence of human remains decomposition scent.” (END)

http://voiceforchildren.blogspot.com/2010/12/operation-rectanglecase-closed.html





List of Conclusions Highly Confidential – Personal Information
7. List of conclusions
7.1 Supervision
 Conclusion 1
7.1.1 CO POWER’s appointment of DCO HARPER as SIO was inappropriate when
Operation Rectangle was solely an historical child abuse enquiry.


(Operation Havern)

Alfred R Jones

  • Guest
Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #1766 on: October 06, 2015, 01:40:18 PM »
do you have a cite for that please Alfred?
Don't play games.