Author Topic: Terms explained - Cadaver - Cadaver scent - Cadaverine - Contaminant etc...  (Read 18261 times)

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Offline Serendipity

If I understand serendipity correctly, Eddie would have reacted to blood only where cadaver scent was also present.

I may have misunderstood.

But if I have understood correctly, I am far from convinced.

The dog is trained to react to blood by being introduced to blood, as a discrete scent, and being rewarded for reacting to it.

That would mean the dog would react to blood, as a scent in its own right.

Yes you have misunderstood yet again Ferryman.  I have NEVER said that.  This is what is what I have ALWAYS said:

Eddie was trained as follows:
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_RIGATORY.htm

'The dog EVRD is trained using whole and disintegrated material, blood, bone tissue, teeth, etc. and decomposed cross-contaminants. The dog will recognize all or parts of a human cadaver. He is not trained for 'live' human odours; no trained dog will recognize the smell of 'fresh blood'. They find, however, and give the alert for dried blood from a live human being.'

And Keela - source http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_RIGATORY.htm

'The dog that alerts to human blood is trained exclusively for this purpose, and includes its components, plasma, red cells, white cells and platelets. Given the nature of the training, the dog will not alert to urine, saliva, semen sweat, nasal secretion, vaginal secretion or human skin unless these are mixed with blood.'

Eddie and Keela were used in tandem as a failsafe method to eliminate any chance of false positives. Eddie's original training was to human blood and latterly and mostly to cadaver scent using pigs and human cadavers and Keela purely to detect human blood.  That's why the dogs were used in tandem.

Ergo Eddie would be sent in first to a location as part of an investigation to check and if he alerted then Keela was sent in to see if she also alerted. If Keela also alerted then the alert was to blood as that is all that Keela is trained to detect. If she did not alert too then Eddie was alerting to cadaver scent.

I've seen a few posts about body fluids today which are misunderstood by Garana and others. When Martin states :

''Eddie' The Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog (E.V.RD.) will search for and locate human remains and body fluids including blood to very small samples in any environment or terrain'

He is talking about the fluid which are produced by the body as it breaks down and liquefies and NOT urine, saliva and semen etc/

The dogs alert to two things and two things only.  Eddie was trained to alert to blood and cadaver scent and Keela to blood.  They would never alert to to urine, semen and faeces etc unless they were mixed with blood.

Also recent claims that Eddie's alert to the wardrobe was due to volatile organic compounds produced by the blood specks found beneath the tiles behind the sofa is frankly ridiculous and I have yet to top laughing.

When Martin Grime states that the scent source can be in a different place to where it can end up, he IS referring to cadaver scent, not blood.

There were no blood alerts in that room! Keela DID NOT alert.

'What we have to be able to understand in a situation such as this is in a hot climate with the apartment being closed down, the scent will build up in a particular area. If there isn't a scent source in here, i.e. a physical article where the scent is emitting from, any scent residue will collect in a particular place due to the air movement of the flat, the apartment and what I would say in this case is that there is enough scent in that area there for him to give me a bark indication but the source may not be in that cupboard, the source may well be in this room somewhere else but the air is actually pushing into that corner. But *strong indication and I would say its positive for things that he is trained to find, which will be part of a separate debrief.'

*Note my asterix and bolding above - Eddie was trained to alert to blood, and trained to alert to cadaver scent.

The text below is taken from:  EDDIE & KEELA MARTIN GRIMES REPORT http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm

'CADAVER SCENT

The odour target of cadaver is scientifically explained through 'volatile organic
compounds' that in a certain configuration are received by the dog as a
receptor. Recognition then gives a conditioned response 'ALERT'.'

This document explains all about bodies and volatile organic compounds, scent cones and pooling 

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=WTXuc7BjA-QC&pg=PA16&lpg=PA16&dq=scent+cone+cadaver+dogs&source=bl&ots=XREMMLEHza&sig=byZDj6-I1NNSu4UVt29qwhm9JAY&hl=en&sa=X&ei=q7c2U4yFFeev0QXMzoHYDw&ved=0CC4Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=scent%20c

Eddie was not trained using cadaverine during his cadaver training but was trained on pigs and human cadavers.

Research from March 2013 blows the myth that Eddie possibly alerted to urine, bad breath, semen or other substances out of the water.

The following is sourced from https://ir.library.dc-uoit.ca/bitstream/10155/315/1/Stadler_Sonja.pdf and is further supported here http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0039005

Cadaverine and putrescine are products of amino acid breakdown and were previously thought to be the main contributors of decomposition odour.  It was also beleived that these volatile compounds are a target for cadaver dogs.  However research into the VOCs produced by pig and human decomposition was UNABLE to identify these two diamines.  This casts doubt on the importance of putrescine and cadaverine as key components in decomposition odour.

And on that note, I am off to enjoy the rest of my Sunday evening.

Offline Carana

'Eddie' The Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog (E.V.R.D.) will search for and
locate human remains and body fluids including blood in any environment or
terrain.


(...)

'Keela' The Crime Scene Investigation (C.S.I.) dog will search for and locate
exclusively human blood.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm

'Taking into account the signals of CSI, could the dog alert to other biological fluids''
The dog that alerts to human blood is trained exclusively for this purpose, and includes its components, plasma, red cells, white cells and platelets. Given the nature of the training, the dog will not alert to urine, saliva, semen sweat, nasal secretion, vaginal secretion or human skin unless these are mixed with blood.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_RIGATORY.htm



Offline Mr Gray

'Eddie' The Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog (E.V.R.D.) will search for and
locate human remains and body fluids including blood in any environment or
terrain.


(...)

'Keela' The Crime Scene Investigation (C.S.I.) dog will search for and locate
exclusively human blood.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm

'Taking into account the signals of CSI, could the dog alert to other biological fluids''
The dog that alerts to human blood is trained exclusively for this purpose, and includes its components, plasma, red cells, white cells and platelets. Given the nature of the training, the dog will not alert to urine, saliva, semen sweat, nasal secretion, vaginal secretion or human skin unless these are mixed with blood.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_RIGATORY.htm

seems serendipity getting a bit confused

Offline Carana

I don't know who is getting confused, but where does Grime state that blood is the only fluid from a living person that Eddie would react to?

I don't find any such clarification in his personal profile, report, nor in his answers to the rogatory questions.

ferryman

  • Guest
They [Eddie and Keela] would never alert to to urine, semen and faeces etc unless they were mixed with blood.

The principal constituent of pseudo-scents is cadaverine, also contained in urine and semen.

Grime says Eddie will not react to pseudo-scents.

So what scent was that sample pair of pants 'perfumed' with that Grime was asked to task Eddie to find in the Sam Parker case?

"...We also saw video played in the courtroom to demonstrate how another dog, Eddie, found a sample pair of pants hidden in the Walker County Jail that was perfumed with a cadaver scent. Eddie is an English Springer Spaniel belonging to Martin Grime, a world-renown forensic K-9 expert based in the United Kingdom.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=1001.85;wap2

« Last Edit: March 30, 2014, 09:10:33 PM by ferryman »

Offline Carana

I posted one of the links that Serendipity has just posted two days ago somewhere on one of these moving threads. http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0039005

What I had found interesting is Fig 4. Only 20 of the hundreds of VOCs are released within the so-called fresh period which is between 1-4 days.

How many and which would be released within a PMI of only 1.5 hours that would still be discernible 3 months later in the absence of an identifiable porous material in the uncontrolled environment of an apartment which had been occupied and aired by a multitude of families until being locked up one week prior to the inspection?

Offline Mr Gray

I posted one of the links that Serendipity has just posted two days ago somewhere on one of these moving threads. http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0039005

What I had found interesting is Fig 4. Only 20 of the hundreds of VOCs are released within the so-called fresh period which is between 1-4 days.

How many and which would be released within a PMI of only 1.5 hours that would still be discernible 3 months later in the absence of an identifiable porous material in the uncontrolled environment of an apartment which had been occupied and aired by a multitude of families until being locked up one week prior to the inspection?

don't forget the alert in the flower bed...wind..rain

ferryman

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I posted one of the links that Serendipity has just posted two days ago somewhere on one of these moving threads. http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0039005

What I had found interesting is Fig 4. Only 20 of the hundreds of VOCs are released within the so-called fresh period which is between 1-4 days.

How many and which would be released within a PMI of only 1.5 hours that would still be discernible 3 months later in the absence of an identifiable porous material in the uncontrolled environment of an apartment which had been occupied and aired by a multitude of families until being locked up one week prior to the inspection?

Excellent question.

Even more so, how would any of those volatile compounds have lingered long enough to have to have been discernible in the flower garden, exposed to all the elements, where Madeleine (if she rested there at all) would have been for a still shorter period of time ...

You beat me to the punch, Dave ...

Offline Carana

don't forget the alert in the flower bed...wind..rain

The hypothesis was worth checking... but nothing was found.

Offline Carana


I've seen a few posts about body fluids today which are misunderstood by Garana and others. When Martin states :

''Eddie' The Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog (E.V.RD.) will search for and locate human remains and body fluids including blood to very small samples in any environment or terrain'

He is talking about the fluid which are produced by the body as it breaks down and liquefies and NOT urine, saliva and semen etc/

The dogs alert to two things and two things only.  Eddie was trained to alert to blood and cadaver scent and Keela to blood.  They would never alert to to urine, semen and faeces etc unless they were mixed with blood.


"and body fluids including blood"

He does not distinguish between blood which may be from a living human being and other body fluids.

In the answers to the rogatory questions, he was only asked about blood.

'The dog EVRD also alerts to blood from a live human being or only from a cadaver'
The dog EVRD is trained using whole and disintegrated material, blood, bone tissue, teeth, etc. and decomposed cross-contaminants. The dog will recognize all or parts of a human cadaver. He is not trained for 'live' human odours; no trained dog will recognize the smell of 'fresh blood'. They find, however, and give the alert for dried blood from a live human being.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_RIGATORY.htm

Offline John

The bit that seems to be missed is the dogs do not react to fresh blood.  Alerts will only be made to dried blood.

"In order for the dog to locate the source the blood must have 'dried' in situ. Any 'wetting' once dried will not affect the dog's abilities. Blood that is subjected to dilution by precipitation or other substantial water source prior to drying will soak into the ground or other absorbent material. This may dilute the scent to an unacceptable level for accurate location."

www.eddieandkeela.blogspot.co.uk/2008/08/martin-grime-report-to-pj-mccann-case.html

A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline Carana

At the end of the day still two questions?   How did it get in situ??   And how did the CSI miss it?

And now we're at the end of the day.  Boa Noite

How do what get in situ? And what did the CSI miss?

There was no forensically confirmed blood in 5A, nor in the Scenic for that matter. We're assuming that there was behind the sofa, on the key card and in the boot because that's all the Keela is trained to detect. One or all may have been, but there's no confirmation of that.

Offline Carana

With all respect Carana that I understand but for me one of the key questions is if there were to have been any presence of blood in Apartment 5A how did the CSI team apparently miss it?

 I apologize if I'm sounding somewhat pedantic on this issue but picking up on any trace of blood is one of the paramount jobs of any CSI team.

As it is if there were any presence on the key-card why not on the door-handle, the steering wheel, the gear lever, the brake, the dashboard, the driver seat, etc?

Ah. I see what you mean about the car. Keela only reacted to the boot (and the key card). A bit odd.

Offline pathfinder73

Ah. I see what you mean about the car. Keela only reacted to the boot (and the key card). A bit odd.

Eddie didn't sniff the seal around the boot or go in it from watching the footage. The key card was buried in a sand bucket that was hidden on the far side of the car park and Eddie found it and alerted to confirm. The question is did he find it buried under sand to confirm that it was cadaver contaminated aswell as blood? I would think so but it's a question for Martin Grime to confirm.

"At 04h50, a new inspection was performed by Eddy on the parking level -4 where the above car
 key was concealed in an area far distant from the vehicle.
 At 04h51, it was verified that the dog 'marked' the area of a sandbox [bucket of sand] of the Fire
 System where the car key had been concealed beneath the sand."

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EDDIE-KEELA.htm
« Last Edit: April 01, 2014, 06:30:17 PM by pathfinder73 »
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Estuarine

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