Author Topic: Interesting experiment - Could the rifle have ended up where it did?  (Read 13708 times)

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Offline Lindyhop

Re: Interesting experiment - Could the rifle have ended up where it did?
« Reply #15 on: April 12, 2014, 08:09:49 PM »
Does the blood on her right forearm suggest her torso was in an upright position when she was shot, with blood dripping from the first wound?

Incredible how she is meant to have fired over 20 shots without breaking a nail or damaging her nail polish. And this is before shellac became a thing.

Offline puglove

Re: Interesting experiment - Could the rifle have ended up where it did?
« Reply #16 on: April 12, 2014, 08:44:37 PM »
Does the blood on her right forearm suggest her torso was in an upright position when she was shot, with blood dripping from the first wound?

Incredible how she is meant to have fired over 20 shots without breaking a nail or damaging her nail polish. And this is before shellac became a thing.

It's possible that Sheila grabbed the gun barrel as Bamber pushed it into her throat, which would account for the blood drips on her arm, her curled fingers and why the first shot went awry.
Jeremy Bamber kicked Mike Tesko in the fanny.

Offline Lindyhop

Re: Interesting experiment - Could the rifle have ended up where it did?
« Reply #17 on: April 12, 2014, 09:25:03 PM »
It's possible that Sheila grabbed the gun barrel as Bamber pushed it into her throat, which would account for the blood drips on her arm, her curled fingers and why the first shot went awry.

Do you mean drops of blood from the gun?


Offline scipio_usmc

Re: Interesting experiment - Could the rifle have ended up where it did?
« Reply #18 on: April 12, 2014, 09:34:07 PM »
Does the blood on her right forearm suggest her torso was in an upright position when she was shot, with blood dripping from the first wound?

Incredible how she is meant to have fired over 20 shots without breaking a nail or damaging her nail polish. And this is before shellac became a thing.

According to the 2002 appeal decision:

"Dr Vanezis gave evidence that the nature of the blood stains to the nightdress suggested that Sheila Caffell was sitting up when she received both injuries. After the second injury she would have immediately fallen back. There was no evidence of any other mark or injury to Sheila Caffell's body such as might be suffered during a fight or in a scuffle."

Unless we get very specific testimony we can't know whether the blood on the outside of her right arm was from when she was shot or after police lifted her and blood came leaking out of her mouth.  Since she was up per the other evidence it could indeed have leaked down her arm though it also could be a wipe.  I have seen blood wipe patterns that look exactly like the trails down her neck and arm. You wipe with the outside of your arm.We have no way to know how much time passed between both shots so she could have wiped before the second shot was delivered.

I saw so many people claiming she was fatally shot by the first bullet I took it at face value but not so says the opinion:

"The higher of the two wounds would have killed her almost instantaneously. The lower of the two would have been a fatal injury but not one where death would have occurred immediately and a person having suffered such an injury may have been able to stand up and walk around for a little time. The lack of heavy blood staining to Sheila Caffell's nightdress suggested that this had not happened here. The lower of the two injuries must have been the first since it had led to haemorrhaging inside the neck and this would not have occurred to the same extent if the other wound, which would have been immediately fatal, had preceded it."

As for not damaging her nails or and skin for that matter, it would require wearing protective clothing to give Nevill such a beat down, rapidly load the rounds and not to have any damage at all even as the stock broke.  That event would in particular be likely to cause some damage.  Julie said that Jeremy told her he wore gloves which naturally makes sense to do since he was planning to avoid liability.  Unless she was also wearing shoes no way could she have wrestled with Nevill in that kitchen and had undamaged/clean feet.

For someone hell bent on murder/suicide wearing gloves and other protective clothing would not make much sense.

 

“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli

Offline scipio_usmc

Re: Interesting experiment - Could the rifle have ended up where it did?
« Reply #19 on: April 12, 2014, 09:42:42 PM »
It's possible that Sheila grabbed the gun barrel as Bamber pushed it into her throat, which would account for the blood drips on her arm, her curled fingers and why the first shot went awry.

This is basic but might help people understand different blood patterns

 http://www.crimescene-forensics.com/Spatter_VS_Transfer.html
“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli

Offline scipio_usmc

Re: Interesting experiment - Could the rifle have ended up where it did?
« Reply #20 on: April 12, 2014, 09:49:46 PM »
I am looking now at a photo that shows 5 drops of blood on her arm.  The blood dripped towards the inside of her arm instead of down the outside. It also drips towards the hands.  So what I see looks like the arm was angled down not flat when the blood dripped on it. So sit in a chair, put your arm on your thing and that is roughly how her arm was when the blood dripped on it.   

If she had her arm under her chin the hand North and her elbow South then the blood would have run towards her elbow.

Another explanation for the blood is that a hand touched her arm and dragged the blood there. But she had no blood on her left fingers so it would have to have been a third party for that to happen.
“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli

Offline puglove

Re: Interesting experiment - Could the rifle have ended up where it did?
« Reply #21 on: April 12, 2014, 10:51:52 PM »
This is basic but might help people understand different blood patterns

 http://www.crimescene-forensics.com/Spatter_VS_Transfer.html

Do you think that the first shot knocked Sheila out cold? It tore her jugular and caused the large pouch of blood that can be seen under her chin, but that blood was contained (not swallowed or exhaled) until the second shot forced some out of her nose and mouth. There was no blood found in her stomach or lungs, and there were no droplets on her face. I think that first shot rendered her unconscious immediately.
Jeremy Bamber kicked Mike Tesko in the fanny.

Offline scipio_usmc

Re: Interesting experiment - Could the rifle have ended up where it did?
« Reply #22 on: April 12, 2014, 11:30:51 PM »
Do you think that the first shot knocked Sheila out cold? It tore her jugular and caused the large pouch of blood that can be seen under her chin, but that blood was contained (not swallowed or exhaled) until the second shot forced some out of her nose and mouth. There was no blood found in her stomach or lungs, and there were no droplets on her face. I think that first shot rendered her unconscious immediately.

I don't know if she was unconscious or not and I suspect there is no way to figure that out for sure.  If there were then it would have been easy for the prosecution to say she passed out so could not have fired the second shot. 

“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli

Offline puglove

Re: Interesting experiment - Could the rifle have ended up where it did?
« Reply #23 on: April 12, 2014, 11:31:23 PM »
Some questions for Holl, when she's not busy out on the razz!   8(0(*

Do you think that the blood in the silencer somehow came from the bucket(s) of soaking clothes?

Who do you think fired the second shot to Sheila?

Who do you think wiped the gun clean of prints, bearing in mind that Sheila supposedly fired all of the shots and also used the gun as a club?

How do you think that Sheila felt after meeting her birth mother?
Jeremy Bamber kicked Mike Tesko in the fanny.

Offline puglove

Re: Interesting experiment - Could the rifle have ended up where it did?
« Reply #24 on: April 12, 2014, 11:37:16 PM »
I don't know if she was unconscious or not and I suspect there is no way to figure that out for sure.  If there were then it would have been easy for the prosecution to say she passed out so could not have fired the second shot.

I honestly think that the fact that Sheila, with a throat full of blood, didn't gasp, gag or splutter, or gulp in shock, must mean that she was unconscious after the first shot.
Jeremy Bamber kicked Mike Tesko in the fanny.

Offline puglove

Re: Interesting experiment - Could the rifle have ended up where it did?
« Reply #25 on: April 12, 2014, 11:42:00 PM »
I honestly think that the fact that Sheila, with a throat full of blood, didn't gasp, gag or splutter, or gulp in shock, must mean that she was unconscious after the first shot.

Either I'm a complete plonker (highly possible) or Sheila was super-human (not very possible), but I think that this clinches it.
Jeremy Bamber kicked Mike Tesko in the fanny.

Offline puglove

Re: Interesting experiment - Could the rifle have ended up where it did?
« Reply #26 on: April 13, 2014, 12:32:22 AM »
Either I'm a complete plonker (highly possible) or Sheila was super-human (not very possible), but I think that this clinches it.

If you look at the images of Sheila you can actually see, by her hair and the back of her nightie, how she was pulled down slightly ( probably by her feet) to expose her neck for the second shot.
Jeremy Bamber kicked Mike Tesko in the fanny.

Offline John

Re: Interesting experiment - Could the rifle have ended up where it did?
« Reply #27 on: April 14, 2014, 11:14:44 AM »
Does the blood on her right forearm suggest her torso was in an upright position when she was shot, with blood dripping from the first wound?

Incredible how she is meant to have fired over 20 shots without breaking a nail or damaging her nail polish. And this is before shellac became a thing.

The drops of blood on the carpet are imo indicative of her being shot whilst standing.  She must have been felled by that shot because she never was able to touch the wound on her neck as evidenced again by the unsmeared blood trails.

Back to the opening question, I do believe for a moment that the rifle was found as shown in PC Birds crime scene photos. 
« Last Edit: April 14, 2014, 11:19:21 AM by John »
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Interesting experiment - Could the rifle have ended up where it did?
« Reply #28 on: April 20, 2014, 06:26:28 PM »
Some questions for Holl, when she's not busy out on the razz!   8(0(*

Do you think that the blood in the silencer somehow came from the bucket(s) of soaking clothes?

Would need a biologist to confirm whether or not watery menstrual blood could produce the readings it produced ie ABO, EAP, AK, Hp.  My experiment showed that a film formed on top of the water and s..m at the side of the buckets but whether any of this material and/or the watery blood would be capable of attaching to the silencer in the manner in which it was found and subsequently tested ie smears, blobs, flakes I have no idea. 

Who do you think fired the second shot to Sheila?

I am sceptical about the police shooting Sheila.  The pathologist said it was possible for her to have inflicted both shots and I am inclined towards thinking this was the case. 

Who do you think wiped the gun clean of prints, bearing in mind that Sheila supposedly fired all of the shots and also used the gun as a club?

I think it possible that an officer moved/touched the gun in his haste to make it safe.  Realised his error and wiped the gun to prevent any come back on himself.  The position of the gun as depicted in various soc photos has clearly been moved.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=77.msg134543#msg134543

From COA doc

"72. The weapon was also examined for fingerprints. A print from the appellant's right forefinger was found on the breech end of the barrel, above the stock and pointing across the gun and Sheila Caffell's right ring fingerprint was found on the right side of the butt, pointing downwards. There were three further finger marks on the rifle, each of insufficient detail for identification purposes


How do you think that Sheila felt after meeting her birth mother?

Overwhelmed.  According to Colin's book the meeting went well but further on in the book he states that SC's birth mother's husband was unsupportive and her other children did not know of SC's existence.  So there were hurdles to overcome if a relationship was going to develop plus the geographical distance as the birth mother lived in Canada. I am wondering if after the initial euphoria of the first meeting wore off SC might have felt a range of negative emotions which may have been felt more acutely given her fragile mental state.  This is not something she should have embarked on without a lot of support but I don't think she received any.  My reunions with my birth parents were very positive but they were still overwhelming. Nicky Campbell, radio and tv presenter and patron of British Association of Adoption and Fostering states the following re his reunions see section 13 re reunions with birth parents.

 http://www.videojug.com/interview/nicky-campbell-on-adoption 

 You will probably recall reading about the adopted son of David Gilmour (Pink Floyd guitarist), Charlie Gilmour, who was charged for swinging from the cenotaph during the student riots.  His defence barrister claimed the following:

 "had been catapulted into a downward spiral of drink and drugs by a disastrous meeting last year with his biological father, the radical playwright and poet Heathcote Williams".

 http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2015110/Pink-Floyds-David-Gilmours-son-Charlie-jailed-16-months-LSD-rampage.html


Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline puglove

Re: Interesting experiment - Could the rifle have ended up where it did?
« Reply #29 on: April 20, 2014, 08:56:56 PM »


Check you out, splitting your quotes!!  Thank you for your answers.
Jeremy Bamber kicked Mike Tesko in the fanny.